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#6578 - 04/12/13 09:41 PM Dover relay logic oildraulic  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 885
jkh Offline
4 Ever Learning.
jkh  Offline
4 Ever Learning.

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 885
This is a relay logic Dover selective collective with 4 stops inline. The old IBM relay controls. The car responds properly to the hall calls. But when more then one car call is put in the car skips the first call and stops at the furthest car call out.
So if I have the car at the bottom landing and I place a 2nd and 3rd landing car call the car skips the 2nd and then stops at the 3rd. The selector is stepping in its proper sequence. When 2a1 and 2a2 pickup 2c cancels and the car goes to 3. 3a1and 3a2 pick, CC picks, CS picks and the car comes to a stop.
We are going back on Monday and I would appreciate anything you can share. We do have prints. And it seems that what ever picks and drops CC happens too quickly. And CC doesn't have enough time to pick when there is more then one car call.


Make good choices,

JKH
#6580 - 04/13/13 01:33 PM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: jkh]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 757
john jay Offline
old hand
john jay  Offline
old hand

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 757
ohio
cs has to pull in to stop, therefore Lr and sp have to pull in. The contact on cc and that pulls in sp is a suspect.

#6583 - 04/14/13 12:54 AM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: john jay]  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 885
jkh Offline
4 Ever Learning.
jkh  Offline
4 Ever Learning.

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 885
Thanks for the response John. I believe my trouble has to do with V (slowdown). Ill keep you posted!


Make good choices,

JKH
#6607 - 04/16/13 12:19 AM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: jkh]  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 885
jkh Offline
4 Ever Learning.
jkh  Offline
4 Ever Learning.

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 885
I found the CS2 contact that is use to short out CC constantly made. One of those blasted needle contacts!

Thanks


Make good choices,

JKH
#6609 - 04/16/13 12:47 AM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: jkh]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 533
solidstate Offline
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solidstate  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 533
I used to think that an oletimer was just lazy by telling me to check every IBM relay. He would say pull them out,blow them out and look at them. He would not even trace the schematics. He also liked to say the female plug contacts could be loose, so squeeze them tight before you plug each one of the relays back in. Any time there was an issue that was not obviously a mechanical problem this was his solution. The crazy thing was once he was called in,the same problem never happened again. And it was never a parts charge. Just labor.

Now we have the yellow jacket relays, in every unit that has not been modded. smile

#6614 - 04/16/13 06:39 AM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: solidstate]  
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 262
Philly Offline
enthusiast
Philly  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 262
Thosec aren't helpfulat all, they prevent you from being able to circuit trace. That is the worst situation you could be in. A little idiot light (led) doesn't solve your problem. Nothing replaces good old troubleshooting.

#6616 - 04/16/13 04:52 PM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: Philly]  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 885
jkh Offline
4 Ever Learning.
jkh  Offline
4 Ever Learning.

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 885
Thank s for the responses

Solid State

The old timer had definitely pass on some of his wisdom!

I've no experiences with the yellow jacket relays. Every unit I've seen with these relay base type has had the IBM relays. I will say it is nice when you trace the trouble out that you can see the faulty contact.

Philly
What is the function of the LED? To tell you the coil is energized?

Also, thanks Jim Collett the sequence info for call canceling was spot on!

Last edited by jkh; 04/16/13 04:56 PM.

Make good choices,

JKH
#6633 - 04/17/13 02:49 PM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: solidstate]  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 419
Broke_Sheave Offline
addict
Broke_Sheave  Offline
addict

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 419
Originally Posted By: solidstate
I used to think that an oletimer was just lazy by telling me to check every IBM relay. He would say pull them out,blow them out and look at them. He would not even trace the schematics. He also liked to say the female plug contacts could be loose, so squeeze them tight before you plug each one of the relays back in. Any time there was an issue that was not obviously a mechanical problem this was his solution. The crazy thing was once he was called in,the same problem never happened again. And it was never a parts charge. Just labor.

Now we have the yellow jacket relays, in every unit that has not been modded. smile


Yes...I can attest that the above method does work. Back then it was part of routine anual maintenance. In this day and age for a building to pay the kind of money to keep one of these things in tip top shape, it is far more cost efficient to modernize.


It Don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing.

Cool, Free, Johnny Smith courtesy of NPR..HERE
http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/asc/asc25.smith.asx
#6637 - 04/17/13 08:12 PM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: Broke_Sheave]  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 885
jkh Offline
4 Ever Learning.
jkh  Offline
4 Ever Learning.

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 885
I agree Broke Sheave! Unfortunately the last repair we had for this unit was during a pressure test. The inspection switch on the car top snapped off. That was over 3 years ago. This was our second call since I took it on 6-7 years ago. How do you convince a customer to modernize their elevator when it runs so well?

This unit is the exception to the rule.


Make good choices,

JKH
#6640 - 04/17/13 09:00 PM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: Broke_Sheave]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 533
solidstate Offline
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solidstate  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 533
Originally Posted By: Broke_Sheave
Originally Posted By: solidstate
I used to think that an oletimer was just lazy by telling me to check every IBM relay. He would say pull them out,blow them out and look at them. He would not even trace the schematics. He also liked to say the female plug contacts could be loose, so squeeze them tight before you plug each one of the relays back in. Any time there was an issue that was not obviously a mechanical problem this was his solution. The crazy thing was once he was called in,the same problem never happened again. And it was never a parts charge. Just labor.

Now we have the yellow jacket relays, in every unit that has not been modded. smile


Yes...I can attest that the above method does work. Back then it was part of routine anual maintenance. In this day and age for a building to pay the kind of money to keep one of these things in tip top shape, it is far more cost efficient to modernize.


Surely Broke Sheave, you are not saying that you are an ole timer?

LOL.

#6647 - 04/18/13 11:56 AM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: solidstate]  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 419
Broke_Sheave Offline
addict
Broke_Sheave  Offline
addict

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 419
I remember Pickett's charge at Gettysburgh..LOL..


It Don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing.

Cool, Free, Johnny Smith courtesy of NPR..HERE
http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/asc/asc25.smith.asx
#6648 - 04/18/13 04:24 PM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: Broke_Sheave]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 487
E-man Offline
addict
E-man  Offline
addict

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 487
One of the younger guys that works with us now told me this story. When he first hired on in the Elevator Business he worked for a non-union company and he went around cleaning pits and machine rooms for a long time, that's all he ever did. Eventually he assisted the owner in some troubleshooting etc. etc. until he got familiar with some of the equipment. So then one day they gave him boxes of titanium wire contacts and told him to go to a composite job and replace all of them in the controllers... Needless to say, when he turned the first car back on it wouldn't run... After hours of troubleshooting they got the car back running. I usually don't clean or replace contacts unless I know for sure that they are causing a problem - a very wise older Elevator Wizard gave me that advice.

#6649 - 04/18/13 05:46 PM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: E-man]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 18
charlie Offline
stranger
charlie  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 18
If it aint broke dont fix it.

#6651 - 04/18/13 06:08 PM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: charlie]  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 419
Broke_Sheave Offline
addict
Broke_Sheave  Offline
addict

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 419
I worked with several old timers in the 70's on all manner of relay control. One of them was a DMR ace, and he insisted that I, being the young helper should blow out those controllers, with a cadillac blower, annually.

The 1st time I did this of course the car would not run and I called him to the machine room to assist me. He told me.

"DAMNIT, Just KEEP BLOWING TILL IT RUNS. DON"T YOU KNOW ANYTHING?"...LOL...


It Don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing.

Cool, Free, Johnny Smith courtesy of NPR..HERE
http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/asc/asc25.smith.asx
#6656 - 04/19/13 02:04 AM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: Broke_Sheave]  
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 279
GreenPants Offline
GreenPants
GreenPants  Offline
GreenPants

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 279
on fridays never pull your tools out of the truck after lunch unless absolutely necessary.

#6667 - 04/19/13 03:28 PM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: GreenPants]  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 419
Broke_Sheave Offline
addict
Broke_Sheave  Offline
addict

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 419
Originally Posted By: GreenPants
on fridays never pull your tools out of the truck after lunch unless absolutely necessary.


You are indeed a wise man Green Pants.


It Don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing.

Cool, Free, Johnny Smith courtesy of NPR..HERE
http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/asc/asc25.smith.asx
#6697 - 04/21/13 04:56 AM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: Broke_Sheave]  
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 13
TKE Offline
stranger
TKE  Offline
stranger

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 13
UC,CC and DC are 32 volt relays (black coils) make sure know one has changed one out with a 48 volt or worse a yellow jacket.

#6702 - 04/21/13 01:42 PM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: TKE]  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 885
jkh Offline
4 Ever Learning.
jkh  Offline
4 Ever Learning.

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 885
Green pant
There is wisdom in your words...

TKE
This unit uses 26 volt black coils for UC, DC, & CC. The prints at this job were in mint condition. The voltage difference is clearly indicated on the print. and Jim Collett reached out with a description of the canceling sequence for this circuit. So Monday when I walked into machine room I was good to go!

Thanks for the heads up.


Make good choices,

JKH
#6851 - 05/01/13 08:08 PM Re: Dover relay logic oildraulic [Re: jkh]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 65
Oleeightball Offline
journeyman
Oleeightball  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 65
Southeast
I'm no fan of yellow jackets, or any other relative of bees personally.
Watch out for the wire slipping down in wcr relay those are FUN.....
Also the little plastic pieces that go around coils do get brittle and will cause you grief as well,
Here is a hint as well, put a change date on those with magic maker
After year or so I change them out.... Less trouble
And lest I forget the brass sleeve on 14/15 switches on composites....
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