Scenario based technical question

Hi everyone...
I was surfing the internet hi and low, but was unable to find any answers for my question, so I was hoping that some of you guys would be able to answer this for me.
I apologize in advance, if this is the wrong forum and moderators please feel free to move this post to where you think it belongs.
I don't know much about elevators, so try to avoid getting too technical if possible...:)

I always wondered if the following sequence is possible, or if such occurrence was ever recorded?
I do know, that there are records of all of these events happening separately, but never in one shot...

I'm going to suggest a following scenario and I would like to know, if something like this would be possible under certain circumstances?

Suppose that one person steps onto a traction elevator at the ground floor and at the same time, there is some sort of a catastrophic malfunction, in which the brake mechanism/gearbox or any form of mechanical resistance fails.
Assuming, that the counterweight is heavier than the one person + the elevator car, could the following happen:

The elevator starts ascending towards the top of the shaft and it is gaining speed...for the sake of argument let's assume this is a tall building, so it has time to build up quite the momentum.
By the time it reaches the top of the shaft, it crashes with so much force, that the ropes will somehow separate from the cab and the emergency braking mechanism (which from my limited understanding is located on the top of the car) is now too damaged to deploy properly.
So now the elevator car is plunging to the bottom of the shaft at free fall.
The car hits the bottom pit and the ceiling of the shaft gives away moments later due to the structural failure sustained by the car running into it, so now all of the elevator machinery along with chunks of concrete come crashing down on top of the car...

Would this be possible?
What would all have to go wrong for something like this to happen all in one sequence?
Thank you for any reply's.

God would REALLY have to be pissed at you! Taking your scenario, yes, the car could suddenly ascend at a rapid rate. The safety device is located on the bottom of the car and would probably not sustain any damage from the rapid rate of assent, therefore as soon as the car reversed to start the fatal plunge, the safeties would set and stop any further movement in the downward direction. You, however, would probably bounce off the ceiling and fall to the floor. Back to the scenario, if the cables came off as suggested, what would pull all the elevator equipment down on top of you?

METHINKS THIS WAS TRIED IN SEVERAL MOVIES AND ELEVATOR MEN EVERYWHERE JUST CHUCKLED AS WE WATCHED IT UNFOLD.

Here is something similar:
http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/accidentsmishaps/a/barrel_bricks.htm
-pk-

Thanks for your reply Johny....
The reason I thought this would be possible is, that I have stumbled across a documented case on the internet a while ago, in which the elevator at some sort of a textile factory in the US took a plunge and the machinery has followed shortly after...I will do my best to try and find that news article and will post a link.

The reason I personally thought that the machinery falling through the ceiling wasn't so far fetched is the fact, that just like any other structure, the ceiling of the shaft is not immune to being damaged...
Being that there is so much weight sitting directly on top of it means, that it already has some stress load on it to begin with...
I have no idea what the weight of the elevator car is, but I don't think it is too light to cause damage, especially if it has sufficient time to build up the upwards momentum.
I'm pretty sure that the mass X velocity of the car and the strength of the ceiling shaft could be brought to light through some sort of a calculation, which I'm unable to perform...
I will do my best to find you that link about this case..

pk125...Yes I'm aware of the barrel of bricks urban legend.
I think it was on Mythbusters when they put it through the test and found out that it was feasible, as they were able to replicate this sequence as described in the legend...:)

Ok...I was able to find the link for the machinery crashing down on the car.
I could not find a separate link, so this link gives you a list of 10 elevator accidents, all in one article...
This one is at number 9 and it is listed as "American Woolen Company"

http://listverse.com/2011/12/23/10-tragic-elevator-accidents/

I smell a lawyer......

@Postal...If you are suggesting I might be some sort of a lawyer looking for some mega settlement, let me put you at ease...
I wish I was a lawyer, but I'm not.

If I was a lawyer, I'm pretty sure I could hire one of you guys to consult me without having to join a discussion forum on the internet...
I'm just an average person, whom likes to analyze things in more depth than most people would ever bother...
I simply thought, that the best way to get the answer to my question would be going straight to the source and asking a bunch of professionals from the elevator industry...?

Back in the 20's 30's and 40's when this story supposedly took place they used a lot more timber in the buildings , overheads and machine rooms. Sounds like this is the case. I saw a composite about 10 years ago that had building beams made of wood holding up the overhead deflector sheave. The job was installed in the 70's .

This is dumb, Rope Gripper, CWT safeties, buffers, car safeties, buffer.....Elevators aka redundant safety factors in that order

I'm not sure what you meant by "this is dumb", as I have already admitted above, that my knowledge of elevator systems is very basic at best...

This however does not mean that I'm a complete idiot...it only means that I'm not familiar with the technical jargon and inner workings of the various elevator systems...
I was basing my scenario question on the known laws of physics and some documented cases from the past regarding elevator accidents...
Again, I have no idea by what you mean by CWT safeties or buffers, as I'm not an elevator tech...could you elaborate in more details?
All I'm looking for is for someone to explain this to me in laymen's terms, without insults or suspicions of having ulterior motives...

I don't chime in much here anymore but Driver, I think a lot of the hesitancy to address your questions, is that it just takes too much time to respond. For instance. The link below if just for the QEI recertification test.

https://naesai.org/UserFiles/5_Houston_TX_flier_2014_2.pdf

Notice all the books required just to prepare and take this test.

A17.1 / CSA B44 Safety Code for Elevators and Escalators
• A17.2 Guide for Inspection of Elevators, Escalators and Moving Walks
• A17.3 Safety Code for Existing Elevators and Escalators
• A18.1 Safety Standard for Platform Lifts and Stairway Chairlifts
• NFPA 70 National Electrical Code
• QEI-1 Standard for the Qualifications of Elevator Inspectors
• Elevator Industry Field Employee’s Safety Handbook
• And more

These books alone require a couple of grand and hour upon hour of study just to be up with the current codes, which are constantly changing.

And that's just to inspect them and be up on current code. And to work on them opens a complete new set of educational requirements. A rigoruous 5 year course with overseer's from the government, Companies and Unions. Course descriptions below.

http://www.neiep.org/courses/default.aspx

That's not counting all the company classes, adjuster classes,Night classes for advanced degrees (Usually in electronics or computer architecture, or programming).

And yes. In my 35 years I have witnessed the scenario you describe. An older open loop control from the 60's. Not seen it on any of the newer controls because of built in safety redundancy. There are just so many possibilitys to your scenario, I'm sure everyone here on this board could dream of this happening if X,Y,Z happened on Control type Q...

Probably wont post here for a long time again, but that's just too much hassle.

Hope that helps Driver

Driver, I followed that link and there several differences with the two scenarios. That car didn't go up before it fell down. The machinery (overhead drum) and the supporting members all came tumbling down. They said 500 tons, however even a tandem geared Otis drum would likely top out at about 5 tons, so weight is off a tad. Still, the scenario that you started with had some unique requirements and that was what I went by. Broke Sheave has some good points and is correct with his assessment. Buffers are the items that retard the elevator and counterweight at the extreme ends of travel and are checked regularly for proper operation. However, slower cars (under 200 fpm) have springs and these wouldn't help a lot if you had enough rise to gain momentum. Also, buffers are rated for speed and capacity. Obviously, rated speed would have been exceeded. If you have occupiable space below the elevator shaft, you would have to have counterweight safeties as well as car safeties, and that would have stopped the upward motion of the car by stopping the downward motion of the cwt. In late model elevators, you have rope brakes and sheave brakes that work independently of the safeties and stop the upward movement of the car. You also have UIM (un-intended motion) circuitry on later model elevators. Like I said earlier, If God has it in for you, it's gonna get messy.

Thank you guys so far for all your reply's.
As Broke Sheave has pointed out, I'm starting to get the hint that the answer to my question might not be easy, as there are too many factors at play.

@Johnny...good point about the CWT safety stops, as this single feature would likely take the wind out of the rapid ascend by stopping the counterweights before the cabin crashes into the ceiling, but I'm getting the sense that most shafts are not equipped with the extra space needed?

I think that for most part, I have enough partial reply's to be able to piece together that this sequence could occur (maybe in the past) under certain circumstances, as per Broke Sheave's quote:



@Broken sheave, I know that you said you are not likely to post again, but if you do I would like to ask you if you could confirm, that scenario you said to have witnessed also included the shaft ceiling caving in and spilling out the machinery down into the shaft (as per my scenario), since this is probably the only piece of puzzle that I'm still not sure about?
Postal has pointed out earlier, that in the link that I have provided, the fall of the drum machinery was most likely due to the use of timber in the overhead structure (yes I'm aware that the cab has never hit the ceiling in that case, but that is one of very few cases I could find, which involves machinery falling on top of the cab)....
At this point I'm still unsure, if a concrete ceiling of later construction could fail structurally, had it sustained a hard enough hit hit from the ascending cab?

Again, I very much appreciate all of your answers you guys provided to me so far...

And finally, I would like to reveal some of the links to incidents, which have lead me to asking my scenario question... just so you guys know where I was coming from:

This one showed me that brakes can fail and elevator can fall "upwards"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijLywn1-2Gg

This one showed me that the fail-safe brakes, which should stop elevators from plunging may not always work:
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?id=8601546

And this one showed me, that an elevator car can hit the ceiling with hard enough force to kill:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/13/nyregi...s-sq-tower.html

All of these incidents played a part in my initial question above.

Driver, I looked at these links and have several comments.
The first one seems to be falling upward, but at a fairly slow rate. I could certainly cause such a problem for the cameras. When it finally stopped, the phone fell off the hook and a ceiling plastic fell out. Whoopee!!! I'm not sure this was even a commercial elevator. It looked like a LULA or a residential, maybe.
The second one is harder to comment on. Lots of people claim a free-fall and actually experience a lock clip at speed and assume a free-fall. In the picture, there were definitely some broken cables, but the elevator pictured looked older and different than the one first pictured, They didn't back away quitte far enough to compare jambs, but I think I have seen that picture in somebodies video travel journal.
The third one has happened lots of times, mostly with Ward-Leonard systems and failed brake systems. These problems were what prompted the rope brakes, sheave brakes, and redundant braking systems.
In summary, you took three unrelated scenarios and tried to weave them into a workable possibility. I'm not even convinced that at least one of these links wasn't staged. I set up several scenes for movies and made elevators do things they would not ordinarily do. Would have required multiple simultaneous failures.

Go to the forum list, Safety talk, and find too dangerous and machine goes flying. Imagine somebody taping those from a different vantage point and then post them as happening in normal operation.

Essentially...yes.
Assuming those scenarios were real, I didn't think my scenario would be too far fetched if those elements were incorporated in one sequence and then some...

I'm sure that everything could be staged for the cameras (I'm assuming you are referring to the first youtube link), but I would have to question the motives, as there is not much if anything to be be gained by doing this...
Sure it could be a prank, but those 2 people getting out while the elevator moved would definitely gamble with their life in order to film this, especially one of them being a kid...
Suppose that could be fake too, but now it would be getting too elaborate for such a low quality video I think?...

As far as the teen free falling 5 stories in Bronx, there were several pics on the internet from different news sources, most showing the elevator cabin resting below the ground level, which looks like the actual elevator pit?.
Im assuming, if the emergency brakes have deployed, the elevator cab wouldn't have fallen that far down?
Of course I do realize, that when it comes to the news they like to recycle and re-use certain images, since most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference...
For example I have seen a news image recently titled "Ukrainian troops are moving closer to the border", while the image shown was taken from the NATO war in Kosovo some 15 years ago...(bunch of guys in fatiques marching somewhere, most people will not analyze it)...

Having said that, I think that I do have an above average BS detector as well, but to be honest I really don't think that the first video link was staged...

Essentially your scenario includes many factors that need to happen consecutively. The most catastrophic failure is the snapping of a brake shaft on a geared machine which I have never heard or seen happen. If this happened then the stopping of the car in the up direction is unlikely as safety gear is generally only operable in the down direction. Having said that newer MRL safeties are now bi directional. This is why you engineer to specs(hopefully) and incredibly rare if at all. Un intentional movement can happen. We had a car take off from the top floor into the top of the shaft(before my time) and I think an issue was created when the main contactor in the loop circuit flex earthed down enough to create a dynamic braking situation that had enough of a potential difference to create a current to move the car. I don't know enough of the situation to comment further but this is the only thing I ever heard of that was similar to what your asking.

@uppo72, thank you for taking time to read my thread.
Speaking of electrical glitches, I actually have a question about one:
I recall once someone once told me, that they know a person whom was traveling up in a highrise building, when to their horror suddenly the numbers on the display (not sure what kind) have reset themselves half way up and started counting from the ground floor again, despite being somewhere around 15-th floor or so with only some 6 floors to go before the top...
Supposedly the cab crashed into the top pretty hard, then cam down one floor and the door opened so this person was able to bolt out of it, presumably needing a new set of underwear....
Could this somehow happen, or was I a victim of an urban legend?...

I know of instances when a car went into the overhead and crashed, the car got stuck in the overhead, car safties applied.
This must be somthing that you are really trying to get the answer you want and won't let it go. That car would not have recovered in that instance, and yes there would be new skivies involved. Use your BS detector. The car would not have lowered if the case was that it slipped traction in the up direction. If it was overspeeding in the up direction most likley it would have tripped the overspeed switch on the governor, top final, both of which is in the safety circuit. 21 is not a highrise.

Ok...If I still remember the jist of this story correctly, there was no slipping traction, or overspeed involved in that particular case...
The whole plot revolved around the fact that the numbers on the floor counting-off display have somehow reset themselves, while the elevator was traveling in the upwards direction and started counting back from the ground floor, when in fact it was already passing a much higher floor...
In this story/legend, the elevator was simply confused at which floor it really was, so if it were a 21 storey building and the counter has reset back to 0 around 15-th floor this would mean that there were only 6 more floors available, while the elevator would somehow "think", that it still has the full 21 floors to go...

At the extreme end of nomal travel in both directions safety circuit stops the car, and will not restart with ELEVATOR tech reseting, regardless of what the PI says.

Thank you..this is the answer I was looking for, as far as this story is concerned.
Obviously an urban legend of sorts...

Your example is not uncommon. I would also suggest don't get caught up on superlatives like 'crashed' as it is incorrect and places a slant on the typical write ups from journo's to paint a picture of a lack of safety in lifts. What happened most likely, is the lift got what we call out of step. This happens sometimes but in NO WAY is the lift now UNSAFE. The lift will then continue in the up direction until in performs a CONTROLLED slow down into the top floor via the emergency terminal stopping. The reason why it 'seems' like it crashes is because the slowdown is done within a certain distance and has to be done quickly.

Thank you uppo72....Is there a building code on how much space there has to be between the elevator cab's roof and and the ceiling of the shaft once the elevator is sitting at the very top floor, or does it vary from building to building?

When your counterweight is fully buffered out there has tp be enough room for the top of the cab not to hit any of the deflector sheaves in the overhead. Every building is different I've had buildings with huge overheads and then none at all.