Hydro Problems

Here is the problem we've been having:

When button to a floor is pressed, the elevator will move slightly at first. Then, wait 20 secs to 2 minutes and then move.

I had 2 elevator companies take a look at it. One said the leveler needs to be replaced. The other said that the relay contactor needs to be replaced.

What do you guys think is wrong with it?

I know your getting different answers from them, but go with the proffesionals. To many factors to consider here without knowing more about the equipment.

Boa,

The problem is that there are 2 different professionals here with differing opinions. I was hoping by coming here, I can figure out who's right.

But, I guess you're saying it's impossible to say without directly inspecting the equipment?

Does it only happen in the up direction? At only one floor? do the doors open during the pause in operation? Is the problem consistent with every call? Is the Hydraulic Oil fairly warm? These are a few questions you can look into without working on the unit that may help narrow the problem down. Any competent Elevator Mechanic would look at these before getting out the tools.

WorkingSuper,

Did these companies actually trouble-shoot the trouble to its source? Or, did they come in take a quick look at it for free and say "I think this is what is the trouble"? By your brief description I can come with several alternatives of my own.

There is no simple answer to your question. If you paid someone to find the trouble they should be able to prove and explain the trouble to you. If you didn't pay anyone then there is no reason for them to find and tell you what is exactly wrong and what needs to done to correct it.

And no one is saying you can't find help here. I am saying that you are giving too little and/or vague information. If you were in the industry your questions would be worded differently. And you would have included the manufacturer and model of your equipment. Is it doing this at every landing? In each direction? Where are you located?

I am asking these questions so I may try and find a responsible and safe way to assist you.

Sorry I think I'm answering this on your other post, forget where I'm at sometimes.

You're hunch seems to be dead on. It seems to happen mostly when it's going up. It happens starting from all floors I think. And, it occurs every single time.

What happens exactly is someone presses a button. The car jerks a little and then moves to the desired floor. Then, there is a wait for a few minutes. And, then the door opens.

Today, the car's safety got triggered and they were working on it all day to get it off. This is an office building so it's been a nightmare with the tenants screaming bloody murder.

Trust me. We don't cut any corners and make sure that the elevator professional does all the work. We sign off on all work that they suggest. We definitely want this to be done the right way.

And, thanks so much for everyone's help. Hugely appreciated.

Sorry for the 2 separate threads. I didn't realize it would make it confusing.

I closed the other one and will answer questions on this one.

Here is the brief summary of the history.

Starting from 1.5 years ago, the safety would constantly trigger. Perhaps, several times a month. It would cause the elevator to be shut down for about a day, sometimes longer depending where the elevator's position was. But, every single time, it looks like there would be too much slack in the cable.

The techs couldn't figure out the cause. We've put in a heater in the oil, polished the rails, replaced the packing, etc. Along the way, we also replaced several electrical components in the controller. This improved the elevator immensely. Instead of breaking down several times a month, it now breaks down perhaps every month or 2. A big improvement but still not sufficient since this is an office building.

Starting from 2 weeks ago, the elevator started to jerking around a bit. The oil flow was adjusted and the heat on the heating element was reduced slightly. This helped with the jerking but there still was a long pause. The same pause that I explained earlier.

Yesterday morning, the elevator's safety was triggered and the techs worked all day to put the elevator back on. They are working on it today.

The elevator company still have no idea why the elevator is acting the way it does. I guess that's the most important because once the elevator is back and running, it's only going to break down again if we can't figure out the source of the problem.

Is this a roped hydraulic elevator?

Is this a roped hydraulic elevator? Or do you have an over speed collar on the jack head?

Dover elevator have some issues with the oil vicosity in their valves, with oil cold , need more information.

Safties applied? or Gov switch tripped? or both? Safties applied, dog hanging up? Jacks out of synch, one packing tighter than the other racking the car. Gov switch is overspeed. You may have more than 1 issue. Jerking could be the above, then shutdown. Hesitating leaving the floor could be this if the hung up dog drops, but highly unlikely.

Car going off on up,,sounds like either valve block is needing looked at, or dodgy contactor,,,can't be governor as only work on down,,and can't be rupture valve either as same,,then again,,,if guys have been working on it, and it goes off again, I would be asking serious questions as to why the can't find out what's going on,,and keep pushing them,,indeed, tell them to get their technician in,,as long as they pay for it!

Yeah I agree. The pause when levelling in sounds like its levelling in really slow. You could prove this by either do what we have for centuries and that is just staring at the job for ages or fix a temp camera on record on the car to record movement( have done this on a really intermittent fault!!). It sounds like the levelling valve but then again if the down is ok when levelling that seems maybe not( if it is common to both directions). Is the up stop transducer functioning? Is the lift actually level and the doors aren't just opening?

It also sounds like 2 faults really. When you say safties I take it you mean safety gear? It seems to me it shouldn't take all day to get these out unless they are really slamming in or are right at the top of the shaft. Its usually quite easy to bump it up to unlock them. What about burs in the rails or loose rails as well?

Finally I would suggest you have a comprehensive lift contract as in this way they are obliged to attend for free to all callouts and it wont cost you a cent.

Hey, guys. Thanks for all the help. Had a long day and just got in.

john jay - yep...it's a roped hydraulic. Not sure if I have an overspeed collar.

it sometimes takes all day to get it off the safety because it happens on the top floor. This time, it got stuck on the top floor and they stated that something snapped.

Additionally, they said the temp sensor in the oil tank broke and they replaced it. They said this is common every 5 years.

But, they still don't know why the safety keeps going off.

They said they will be replacing the old contactor. They say that the only thing they can do is keep fixing it and keep going by baby steps.

From what you guys are saying, it really could be a number of things and best way is to get the professional to figure it out. The problem is they can't seem to do it. I'm really loyal and so I've been sticking with the present company for a while but I really need to get this elevator running...

Do you guys suggest a certain way to resolve this? For example, would hiring an elevator engineer to consult with present elevator company help? Or is there a certain type of company I should be using? Like union as opposed to non-union? Or should the techs have certain type of accreditations?

Thanks in advance for your help, guys. You guys have been great...

Who is the manufacture and where are you located?

What brand is this unit? It sounds like you may need to get the manufacturer involved, especially if they have field technicians.

Ah yes it can be a drama if the safety gear is in on the top floor especially if the headroom is small. They have to be able to lift the car to disengage the gear and may not have room to do it in or to work.

Just another couple of points. I have worked on lots of roped hydraulics, but it was a while ago so bear with me. We had lots of problems with bouncing in of safety gear for no reason. By that I mean it didn't actually actuate or overspeed, but the lift or diverter sheave momentarily stopped on the rails. We had to check things like: rail clearances from S/gear, governor rope pit pulley weight too heavy and pulling the actuating arm down, gov rope loose, rope diverter sheave rails dry, rope diverter sheave rails loose and cause cross bar to bind in slipper guides.

All of these things should be checked. What is the manufacturer of the lift?

Uppo's on it, rail alignment-jack alignment-dry rails, the list could go on and on. Roped hydros can be an absolute pain. You could have a tight packing, the jerking motion of the piston traveleing down out of the top landing could cause the safeties to set. Tight packings will be worse the higher the elevator travels, you may not notice it too much in the lower portion of the hoistway, the higher you get the harder the "slip, stop, bump".

The correct oil would also make a difference, if the oil has overheated-maybe only once, it will need to be changed. 155F degrees is the cut off point for hydro oil, if it has ever risen above this magic point in temperature, the oil, valve, packing and and any other peice of rubber in the oil line will need to be replaced. Oil is acidic in nature, polymers are blended into the oil to prevent this acid from eating components in the oil system. This acidic oil will now cause many issues with the proper operation of the valve and packing. Acidic oil will turn most rubber "O" rings and packings into sponges, instead of sealing, the rubber now soaks and swells up creating many problems.

Ok WorkingSuper,
I've been trying to follow your thread while I was away. I'm sure you would agree how great it is so many are participating!

Please provide us with the manufacturer and model of the equipment?

You may need to ask your elevator contractor to help in answering our questions...

Single piston roped hydro? Duel piston roped hydro?

Slack in which cable(s)? Piston? Governor?

Is there an electrical switch on the overspeed governor?

Is there a chance the governor mechanical rope grips are tripping in the up direction? Is there a chance when the car starts to go down the dawgs on the safety plank grab the rails and stop the car?

If you were to open the doors, how close to the top landing floor is the elevator car floor?

Any chance you were riding the elevator when anything has happened? If so, when the car started to move up did it feel abrupt and bounce?

I know I've asked already! But this is really important.

Who is the manufacturer? (Otis, Schindler, Dover, Westinghouse)

What is the manufacturers model? (SOB, 330A, DMC, HYL2BC)

Manufacture and model # of the governor?

And one last thing any pictures? Governor, safety plank, pump unit, controller, piston assembly?

Unfortunately, the elevator is down again and I'm trying to coordinate getting guys to come and get it up and running again.

It's a good point that you mentioned the overheating because one of the techs had mentioned that the elevator might have went down because the oil had overheated. They had to turn the heater.

Let me get back to you on the manufacturer. I know the controllers are made by Motion Control Engineering.

Recently Retired. had one rope hydro issue similar to this one. every once in a while, cables are out of the sheave trigged the slack cable sw. shutdown the unit. turned out to be the very tight guide shoes. replaced shoes with roller guide and that's it. hope this help.

I'm going to try it. I'll let them know. Thanks!

jkh,

Yeah, the forum is pretty great.

I'll try to get all the info for you later today. I'm trying to coordinate with the techs there and I'll try to get all the answers to your questions.

It's most likely Motion control engineering HMC-1000 controller. There is a data plate inside the controller with that information.

That's exactly what is is. Model: HMC-1000-PHC

I just talked to the tech and he says he doesn't think it has anything to do with the shoe because he said if it was, the car would shake a lot and he said it looks like it's in pretty good condition.

He said the problem is the elevator loses direction even though they set it yesterday. When the elevator starts, he said it starts too sharp. He's going to replace a tiny valve within the valve and he thinks this might be the problem.

He also said that although this isn't urgent, we should change the oil (elevator is under 5 years old) because the color doesn't look right and it looks dirty.

Other problem is if oil to hot,,thermistors should kick in,,then shutdown till cool again,,

How did he come to that conclusion?

Is the same tech there every time?

Why does he think it is losing direction?

How did he reset the direction?

Did he use a pressure gauge to trouble-shoot the valve?

What is the exact name of the part he said needed replaced?

Are you working on the answers to the questions I have asked?

I'm not sure if you are giving us bad information or if your tech is giving you bad information that you are relaying to us?

Ask the tech what the DBG is at the top and bottom? If he doesn't know what DBG means, you may want to seek out another contractor!

Let's try another route! How many hours have they been there in the last 60 days trouble-shooting this problem?

This loss of direction sounds like the level/pausing fault and not the safety gear fault. It appears to me there is 2 faults here. If the direction is stopping of loosing, it could be a trailer fault losing the up levelling imput magnet( if this has them). It does sound like you have been in the wars but it appears to me it would be possibly very hard to trouble shoot.

WorkingSuper,

I just want to go over what I see you are saying to us.

The car starts to move mostly in the up direction, then there is a pause, then an abrupt start to move again?

The car was found with the mechanical portion of the governor tripped, the car on safety and slack in the hoist cables?

The oil was found heated up to a high tempature and the oil tank over tempature switch was broken and was replaced?

The car when it is sitting idle and not being used will run the pump unit and relevel in?

And you've said the following corrective actions were taken?

A oil heater was installed?
The rails were polished?
Contactors or relays were replaced?
The oil over tempature sensor was replaced?
The piston packing was replaced?
And the oil flow was adjusted?

I am recommending you and your elevator contractor do the following;

1) Turn the power off to the elevator, place a gauge on the valve and close the hydrualic supply line shut off valve to the piston. If the pressure drops on the gauge the valve needs work.

2) Place the elevator controller on test, turn the power on. With the elevator at the bottom landing, place the elevator on controller inspection. Run the car up and watch the timing of wye and delta. If the time to transfer from wye to delta is lengthy (example would be 5 seconds) stop running the car up. Your DELX timer is bad or set too long.

3) with the controller on test and inspection, run the car up and watch if BB (the motor transfer pilot is picking up before delta. If it is then I belive the car is trying to run up while the pump motor is running in wye. If so, then when delta picks the pump would increase the pressure rapidly to the piston.

Let us know what you find...

Supply a picture of the electrical diagram as well...

Hey guys. Sorry for being MIA. The elevator was down again yesterday and it was an ordeal to get it running again. The tech said that the heater in the oil was turned off which probably caused the elevator to go down.

We did do the following:

A oil heater was installed?
The rails were polished?
Contactors or relays were replaced?
The oil over tempature sensor was replaced?
The piston packing was replaced?
And the oil flow was adjusted?

We also replaced an entire part of the controller (I don't know what). And, there were other repairs completed in the past year.

Upon recommendation of the technician, we are going to do the following:

1. replace the entire valve
2. replace the oil (tech said the color is off)
3. replace the leveling board
4. replace the old contactor

It's a lot of money to us but we really need to make sure that the elevator doesn't break down again. It's really killing us. If you guys think something is unnecessary, please let me know.

JKH, I forgot to mention your recommendations to the tech yesterday. It was a little hectic. However, I printed out your instructions and will give it to the tech the next time he comes out.

Do you guys think that I should get the manufacturer, the installer, or an engineer to come in and maybe they can see if there are any glaring problems?

Thanks again, you guys.

I don't know the company you are dealing with, but it looks like they are changing a lot of expensive parts in the hope of fixing a problem. I hope you have a full maintenance contract, one where the company absorbs the cost for a monthly fee. It seems like a competent adjuster should be able to isolate and fix a specific problem, and not just throw parts at your expense to see if something sticks. Unionized Elevator Companies have Techs that go through lengthy Apprentice Programs and ongoing training. I would make sure you are dealing with a reputable elevator company. This thing has a smell about it.

Yep,,,have to ask,,who is paying for this,,is it yourself,,or is it covered by a fully comp maintenance contract,,,this could be interesting!

WorkingSuper,

I'm with JohnJay on it seems they are replacing parts hoping to fix the trouble.

Your control manufacturer has a technical department. For a fee I'm sure they will have someone come out and help your contractor.

Unfortunately, we're paying for it because it's impossible to get on a fully comp maintenance contract when there are so many problems from the start. It's been VERY expensive.

We've been using non-unionized but I'll look into maybe alternatives like you guys suggested. Maybe it's the only way to fix this problem?

Today, I've been contacting the manufacturer to see if they can come and take a look.

Or get it in writing to say once these parts are fitted, lift will work ok,,,see what your elevator company say then!

Not to get you guys fired up, just because they are non-union doesn't make them incompetant. Many non-union shops come from and have people that were in the union and went thru the classes. My point here is even in union shops there are bad mechanics, we should help each other. A few bad ordeals by either and it gives all of us a bad scent.
Workingsuper,
your getting good advice here. My suggestion is to collect references on similar jobs, even from manufacturer and choose who you work with accordingly. It does seem as though this problem has gotten way out of control.

WorkingSuper

Forget the contactor an have them install a soft start seimens Nordic.Very easy to incorporate on a Motion Control. An make sure tech unhooks both up valve coils when sizing valve.

At this point, a technician should be camped out at your building. They should be running the unit endlessly until it malfunctions, multiple times if necessary, so they can witness first-hand exactly what is going wrong. They should be doing this before handing you a laundry list of repairs that might make the problems go away.

Just a few points. I can see why they are recommending these replacements. Levelling issues(levelling board/valve), bad oil(viscosity issues between cold and hot temps), contactor(poor even 3 phase supply to motor which may have caused overheating of pump motor). However you generally don't just do a scatter gun approach.
-Normally you don't need to replace the valve just clean the filter in front of it(mesh) and thru it to allow oil to pass thru. This includes the valve block itself.
-A poor contactor can be split and cleaned, but generally I agree new is better.
-Oil should be part of a simple check and lube service contract.
-Levelling board may be needed if lift not reaching floor level.

All of these things should be used as test functions and if not the fault the existing should be re installed and this is a way to mitigate cost. You would hope there is a little more critical fault finding to ascertain whether these are really needed.

Having soft starters really protect the pump motor from the inrush current that does the damage requiring re wiring eventually. Also union v non-union isn't the issue. Its training v training.

Ps. Lift will always break down, so don't think you will ever get a lift that never breaks down. All we try to do is minimise the situation.

Let me first say a genuine thank you for you guys. You guys really have been great.

Yesterday, we've set up a time with the manufacturer to come already so we're going to wait to see what they advise before proceeding on any repairs.

Motion Control seems responsive as we are communicating with them on all the problems.

The installer for the elevator was Florlift Elevator. I don't know too much about them but from what the techs say, they apparently didn't do a good job and I'm trying to figure out how to fix everything.

I'm going to take your suggestions and see how to incorporate them. I'll see what the elevator company say about the softstart siemens nordic. and I'll see if the company can have a technician camp out at the building but not sure if they would be willing to dedicate one person to do this...

I was told that hydros break down about 2-3 times a year plus times down for maintenance issues. That sound about right?

2/3 times a year is good,,can think of a few over here I did,,breakdowns regularly,,vandalism etc,,,,overuse,,but hopefully ,you are getting there!

WorkingSuper, if your current service company cannot dedicate a technician to your property to witness the failure after you've had all of these issues, you should look for a company who can.

Agree there rac66, someone needs to set up a tent and watch for awhile. If the problem occurs a couple times a day, I would be camping out.

Wow! Sure sounds like someone is guessing at the problem and making the customer pay for it all. You should request a trouble shooter from your elevator company to work on it, they can generally fix problems that the average mechanic/technician cannot.

This is probably going to turn out to be something dumb that was overlooked like clipping a door lock or the safeties were never reset properly.

Roped hydros are a pain, even worse when they are poorly installed!

Hey, everyone. This includes ranger, E311, rac66, koss, uppo, jkh, iggy...I hope I didn't miss anyone. There were so many of you guys that helped me out the last time I was here. This was a while ago but I was always meaning to come back and thank you guys. I was in a totally bad spot and thought I was going to go crazy, literally.... But you guys showed me a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel. I was always meaning to come back and thank you guys. But you know how it is, you come home tired and say you'll do it tomorrow and soon you forget about it. But I never did forget about it and today when I finally got out early today, I told myself to come back here and give a genuine thank you.

To tell you what happened, the manufacturer's rep said that the entire install was a mess. He said that the contractor really screwed up things badly and had a huge list. His strong suggestion was to hire an elevator consulting company to come in and do a full evaluation and follow it to the letter. He recommended 2 companies, one which was Manhattan Elevator Consulting in NYC. He said have them really go over the entire installation inch by inch and list in order which repairs would make the biggest difference. They would also recommend an elevator maintenance company and negotiate a fair contract. We called them but they were charging an amount that we couldn't afford in our budget. (It was a lot!) So, I ended up going from elevator company to elevator company, trying my best to get things to work. It still doesn't work all that well but it's MUCH better.

The elevator shaft and machine room isn't air conditioned so during the summers, the oil overheats and in the winter, the oil gets too thick. We got a heater and cooler that helps with that issue. The elevator's cable still occasionally falls out and the elevator goes down. But not as much anymore. Used to happen like once a week but now it's like 2-3 times a year. I don't know why it's better but I'm guessing it might have something to do with the oil temp.

There are so many things to fix but we can only replace a little by little. And the elevator company that we use, really rips us off like crazy (it's so obvious) but we can't do anything because they are the only nearby elevator company. Even then, they take days to respond sometimes. I've learned to live with the unfairness of it all. You have to or you'll just go crazy with all the anger bottled up inside you. I'm sure many of you guys know what I mean.

Anyway, just wanted to leave a genuine thanks. Hope I could return the favor some day. Peace.