WizBang Relay Testers

Hi Group,

I have built and sold around 35 relay testers that test relays found on older equipment. I have another model that tests big relays found on a lot of older independents up to 220 VAC

I have be out of it for 16 years now so I watch this site with keen interest. Gotta tell you it's a whole new ball game.

I hear a lot of chatter regarding relay failures on the newer stuff.

I would like to build another tester centered on the newer stuff which would be smaller and lighter.

Need some help from you guys, need to know just what relays and what voltages need to be incorporated in my new project.

Thanks in advance for your help in keeping a old elevator man out of the Local Beer Joint.

Work Safe All

The first thing that comes to mind are the small relays used for gate & DZ on Motion 2000 hydros and in the rope gripper circuit on Motion 4000 traction. They seem to have an abnormally high failure rate. I think they originally came with the orange Schrack RTE24615. They also use Black Omron G5RL-1-E-AC120, this is what we have been using but they don't seem to be any better. I have also seen White ones but didn't notice the brand. They are 120vac.

Many thanks,

Do both of these relays use the same base? If so I do have them covered on the current model.

Thanks Again,

Jim

Yes they do

I'll offer this;

The Thyssen TAC20, 20-03, TAC50-04... They use these problematic 24volt relays by Fender, and Schrack (blue and brown respectively). They're a pain when a simple problem occurs. SPDT 24VDC. Then the almighty MUTS relay is 120 volts AC, and a few 110 VDC. All are SPDT. I think I have those correctly identified, and I believe they're all the same base, someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
If you need part numbers, they'll have to show later.

Oops-Corrections to above post;
Both Finder and Schrack relays are DPDT. The voltages mentioned above are correct though.

Finder PN- Type 44.52 /6amp, 250volt
Schrack PN-SR2M-V23047-A1024-A501 6amp,250volt

The OEM blue plastic encapsulated ones are the worst.

Thanks,

So far the all of the above will test in the original WizBang.

Would it be worth building something that will test these guys?

By the sound of it you guys probably have spares in your pocket.

Please keep up the input,

Jim

Well in my laptop bag anyway.

Thyssen does sell a little tester for the 24 volt relays only. It has one blue Finder base and one black Schrack base.

Any idea what they get for it and it is self powered or runs off the controller

No idea of the cost but you just grab P24 G24 with Mini-Grabbers from the controller. I'll post the part #.

The part # 9852109. And correction: It has alligator clips not Mini Grabbers.

Relay Tester

Thank You,

I have these covered, my tester plugs into the wall.

Don't think I can compete with this one.

Work Safe You Guys

Sorry, I didn't mean to advertise Thyssen's tester on your post. I'm sure it's rediculously overpriced anyway.

What about PMI modules? Or the miniature Yellow Jacket relays DPDT in 12, 24, & 48 vdc?

Idwt that's a great idea about the pmi modules I would love to be able to test those.

Have a part # for the PMI module.

As far as the yellow jackets, adapter socket would do the trick.

Gotta ask, been on the couch for 16 years now , what is a PMI module.

DAH...............

Wait a minute here......like an optical coupler. Signal in signal out isolated?

Ya, they are optically isolated solid state relays (SPST) used on Traflomatic & TAC50 controllers. The input modules are 24vdc or 120vac and switch 5 vdc to the CPU. The output modules have 5 vdc coils and switch contacts for either AC or DC. So I think it's just the 4 modules we would need it to test, if there are more I'm sure someone will correct me.

http://www.crouzet-ssr.com/english/products/_iom.shtml

Thanks, Do they plug in or hard wired?

They plug in

So far we have

Schrack RTE24615
Omron G5RL-1-E-AC120
Finder PN- Type 44.52 /6amp, 250volt
Schrack PN-SR2M-V23047-A1024-A501 6amp,250volt
PMIs
Yellow Jackets could do both 2PDT & 1PDT
12-24-48-120 AC/DC?
With the different voltages involved, have to use house power

Anything else?

Jim

Jim,
May I suggest a way to run leads to test relays such as the CA series...

Having a little problem finding thru hole sockets for the pmi

Ideas?

Info for CA series please

Ya I've never seen a socket for them exactly. You may have to cannibalize a PMI card, they used individual pin sockets set into the circuit board.

With the Yellow Jacket relays, It would be nice to be able to test the 4 Poles too that MCE used on the HC-ACI board. The part # should be DS4E-M-DC48V

I think the leads would be a good idea too. Even if you just put jacks in so the leads wouldn't be in the way if you weren't using them. Maybe provide for the coil and 1 or 2 poles.

Got It, good thing about Yellow Jackets they fit in an IC socket

Good Morning All,

When you say test leads. Will they supply 12-24-48-110 ac/ac or the above plus leads to test contacts?

Jim

Sorry for not responding earlier to your email. I'm a little overwhelmed right now.

Yes, if there were ports, plugs or a terminal strip for leads a larger relay could be tested on the controller.

We had a car that would run for hours without fail. But after so many hours, the car overload would trip when the brake failed to lift. Everything would ring out fine on the brake relay. I didn't want to just bang the car on and off. So, With one of your earlier version of the Wizbang tester. I made a plugin base with leads to test the brake relay on a MCE VFMC 1000. Sure enough after cycling the relay on and off many time it would fail.
Let me know what you think or just take my idea and include some modified male pugs as part of your unit...

Yeah, can do it. So you just want test leads that will only test a set of contacts?

Jim

Will the contacts be isolated from the controllers power supply. The way it would work 3 test leads NO-COM_NC in order to these them it would be necessary to run 12 VDC to the common and back out to the tester.

Yeah?

QUESTION,

WHAT IS THE VOLTAGE FOR THE INPUTS & OUTPUTS FOR THE PMIs?

OK, on the in-put side we can use testers power supply 12 thru 120 VDC/VAC. On out-put a 5 VDC supply would tell us if they are OK?

Long and short is:

24 VDC & 120 VAC in and 5 VDC out

Whats the deal on out put modules or not using them?

Thanks

The outputs are opposite. You need to give it 5vdc for coil voltage and run 120vac through the contact to your Indicator on the AC modules. Use 24 vdc through the DC module contact for your LED.

Looking at the data sheet on the input modules, looks like input voltage goes to pins 1 & 2 like the coil if you will, pin 3 gets +5vdc, pin 5 gets common or ground and it should sink pin 4 to ground when the input goes high.
The outputs work more like a relay, common goes to pin 3, when +5vdc goes to pin 4, a triac fires on the AC modules and a transistor on the DC connecting pin 1 to pin 2. If that makes sense. I've never had to think about how they work before.

http://www.crouzet-ssr.com/english/products/download/M_input_modules.pdf

http://www.crouzet-ssr.com/english/products/download/M_output_modules.pdf

Lets try this..........an problem I do see with testing PMIs is a wide range of voltages. Attached is might work. your thoughts all

DUH, FORGET THE LEDS PLEASE IN THE OUT PUTS

Inputs look right but I think the outputs should look more like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l3wderqdwisvdcd/IOs.jpg?dl=0

Correction: the input module circuits should look like this.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l3wderqdwisvdcd/IOs.jpg?dl=0

I wired up all 4 variations today. The input modules switch the - not the +. The DC output module worked fine but the AC did not want to accept a load. Not sure if I'm missing something but with 5vdc applied I would get 120vac through the module but with any load at all it would struggle. The LED with a rectifier circuit would light very dim and with a small relay it would only pick it half the time. I tried 3 modules with the same results. The circuit in the link was the only way I could get a consistent, brightly lit LED every time 5vdc was applied. Obviously you wouldn't want to leave power on this circuit all the time but opening the whole circuit wasn't working, seemed like maybe the cap needed to stay charged? Doubt I have to tell you but I'm not an engineer.

Me Neither Brother,

Think we have impose more of a load on the AC output. Correct me if I'm wrong. The LED draws around 20 MAs which may not turn on the module. Maybe a small transformer in series with the IO will get it going, Use the out-put to drive an LED?

Maybe but I did try it with a relay too. I did take a little video of all 4 variations working if you're interested.

Cool love it

Maybe we can cheat a little bit, by finding an AC out-put application on Dover wiring diagrams. Took a look and couldn't find one.

Please corect me if I' mistaken. The only place I could find where 120 VAC out put modules are used is for 120 VAC Hall Lanterns. Do we even need to look at these things?

There are several of these used to pick relays. From a quick look at a TIV print these relays are all picked with an AC output module: S, BK2, BK3, CD, OD, OHS, NDG, ALF, NXUP. They just wire like a switch though, not sure why it wouldn't work for me, maybe I'll have to try again.

I should warn you, these are not very exciting.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cymx5dvkhtk4sbc/AC%20input%20module.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ihnfp53gynxjmi8/DC%20input%20module.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w852lww0v138l8j/DC%20Output%20Module.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rrm0lqhu5pbg3z4/AC%20Output%20Module.mov?dl=0

And these are wired like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l3wderqdwisvdcd/IOs.jpg?dl=0

Very Exciting, next problem is real estate. Are we going to need 4 PMI sockets? Working on that now.

I'm still excited (at my age it doesn't take much) Save me the trouble. What did you switch on each PMI?

VAC IN on the AC input modules, VDC IN on the DC input modules and VCC on both output modules

What do you think about this for a fully automatic relay tester?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8xy1kot3adhd60h/Relay%20Tester.png?dl=0

Hi Matt,

Been looking for your circuit for years. At one time we had something similar to check all the SY4S relays found in the Montgomery stuff. When a contact failed a crash and burn audio was played. But not nearly as clean as yours. Do we really care which contact is failing or do we care. I like the first part.

If it's bad it's bad.


You have something here brother.

Ya, definitely not going to pinpoint which contact but to find a smoking gun on an intermittent contact failure

here it is working

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tqbllmr6rcac70p/Auto%20Relay%20Test.mov?dl=0

This is with a N/O wire removed and trying to pick and drop as fast as possible to make sure it caught the failed contact

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v8pshgf4v0a68et/Auto%20Relay%20Fail%20Test.mov?dl=0

Way Cool,

I see a WizBang Mark XV out there in the near future. Have this PMI thing going right now. How bout in a few days try get this guy in a nice case.

Question please,

Re: PMI

Having a little grasping the whole concept here (might be the damaged brain cells from all that beer)


Will the same 120 VAC supply work on both the AC input PMI (pins 1 & 2) and the AC output PMI? Like wise for the 24 VDC supply

Ya, I don't see why not

Probably most know this but on the chance a few don't - the Shrack and the Finder relays are NOT interchangable. The pin size is not only different but shaped differently. A very common source of intermittent problems. Be sure to check socket brand and use only a relay of same brand. And by the way, jobs came out of the factory with relays - sockets not matched.

Here is the prelim............
Get your markers out and please let me know what you see needs changing or added.

Thanks,

Jim

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4s5ob7elx289sly/AAB_8KnxMdRFM7ez_umL5Mw4a?dl=0

That looks right to me! You may consider making room for both a Finder and a Schrack relay base like the TK pic I posted.

Think we are OK, Unless I'm mistaken all three relays have the same contact pile-up only difference in the base is color.

That is debatable. For the most part, Thyssen considers them interchangeable but the fact is the Finder relay's pins are at least twice as big as the Schrack's. And Otis has been installing non force-guided versions that have huge pins. The problems I have had have been from using the Schrack relays in the blue finder bases. The pins barely reach into the sockets. I would just worry you may have false negative results with this combo and if you use a Schrack base the sockets may get stretched out from the Finder relays and cause the same problem. Even though you get a Schrack relay no matter what part number you order from TK, there has to be a reason they used both bases on their tester. Just something to think about.

What program do you use to make your wiring diagrams?

Good One,

Finder pins are .4mm X 1 mm
Omron/Schrack are .5mm x .8mm

Explains 2 sockets in the TKE tester

I use Corel Draw X7

Jim

What are you using for a flasher? What is the flash rate and is it adjustable?

Standard on all the testers has been a 12 vdc auto (car/hazard) flasher. Been kicking around the idea of making it adjustable.
Not a big deal. just a 555, caps, resistors and transistor. Think its a good idea.

Cobbled up a timer circuit. More like finding it on Google.

Tester has 2 power supplies 5 VDC & 24 VDC. Circuit is set up for 5 VDC. My theory ends here. Was wondering if one of you IUEC trained wizards (Indirtwetrust) out there could change the values to work on 24 VDC. It would make the whole deal a lot easier.

Thanks

https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=Timer.pdf

I didn't think this measurements on the relay pins sounded right so I measured some with a caliper, those are the 2 width numbers.. The Finder measurements are pretty close at 1mm x .5mm but the thin dimension on the Schrack relays are as thin as .225 mm, less than half the Finder's.
Then the length is a problem too as the Schrack pins at 3.175mm barely reach into the blue Finder relay sockets as those pins range from 5mm to 5.8mm.

I have added a blue socket so the other socket should handle the Schrack & Omron?

Would you believe the blue sockets are available on Amazon.

Ha! That is funny. That link you posted just took me to the Dropbox homepage.

I'm not kidding..............

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JVB...d=AZHZ102UTKBMA

That picture looks like a single pole relay socket

Just when I thought I got lucky.

Thanks for the heads up

Are these still being made?

i believe the gentleman has passed