New Controllers: Time For A Change

Not a tech but the end user for a high rise bldg with 5 Schindler Haughton Gold Flight traction elevators. One (the freight) is the original equipment (26 years old) but the four passengers were modernized about 6 years ago with TXR5 controllers and Magnetek drives. I don't have to tell anyone here the predicament we got suckered into with this very proprietary controller, but I would like some suggestions as to what controllers (make and model) we could switch to that would be really and truly non-proprietary that any elevator service company could work on without the use of some tool, SDM chip or other device that the out-going service company will vindictively pull off the job once they know they're out the door. Thank you so much for your help!

The TXR5 are not that hard to maintain. Since you the Bldg. owner owns the SDM chips you just have to call the big Schindler and get them. Any other questions just email me.

Motion Control Engineering (aka "MCE") manufactures non-proprietary controls, for AC Traction, DC Traction, hydraulic, etc. They have a great engineering team.

We've used Motion on nearly 500 units, traction and hydraulic, and had VERY FEW problems, overall. Most problems can be fixed in the field pretty quickly, or with their phone tech support. Their circuits are comparatively easy to trace, so a lot of techs like them. Boards are available o/n air from Rancho Cordova, CA. I like the flexibility they give us to configure spare input and output channels, and adjust operating parameters in the field. (Compare that to another manufacturer, where I had to get their engineering dept to write new software, with all the frustration and delay that incurs)

Last time I heard, they had something like 40% of the modernization market. For traction elevators, you could go with an MCE M4000, or the new iDrive. They can advise you best, as to what model meets your job specific needs. 916-463-9200.


(MCE, can I have my lollipop now?)

Thanks for the info Vic. Give me an address and I may send you a whole box of lollipops!

8*)

I agree with Vic. MCE's stuff is pretty good. I like the newer M4000 controls. Not too excited about their 1/2 wide hatch selector tape but it does seem to work. The iBox I can take or leave but it is easy to install and troubleshoot. I adjusted various MCE controllers for about 20 years now and they do have a good staff when you need help although you need to be persistent. It takes some time on the phone but eventually you'll get help. I recommend a phone in the machine room or do like I do and tap into the emergency phone line. By comparison, I have also done a ton of CEC units over the years and their tech support these days really sucks. They make a pretty decent controller but the guys who answer the phone usually are of little help. We used quite a bit of the GAL Galaxy as well on low rise 350ft/min or less applications.I used to adjust your Goldflite units too back in my earlier days. The GMG wasn't too bad but the GAC I or II was real junk. I think everyone made junk when they first started using AC motors. It wasn't until VVVF came out that AC motors could really shine.

you could switch to MCE and have the same amount of problems you have now and waste a bunch of money. is it controller problems, door problems, or do you just not like your tech? hire a good consultant to light a fire under your service company.

We use GAL Galaxy stuff and haven't had any issues with them. Customer support is great and its completely non-propietary.

@Matt,

What do these controllers generally cost(ballpark figure)?

Retail costs vary but I'd imagine anywhere from 15~20K each.

Consider that it all depends how many elevators/buildings we are talking about. obviously any company should be able to give you a better deal if you are giving them more than one building with a bank of elevators.

So for say a bank of 4 cars in one building, if you add in a somewhat expedited installation to include some overtime work, would you say that $30,000 per car would be about right for budgetary purposes? What is the general/average installation time per car?

no lol . i mean just parts alone. its too vague to comment.

okay, thanks anyways

I think you should go proprietary with Otis GCS controls, Compass destination dispatching and Panorama elevator management system. It is the best stuff on the market right now. You and your tenants would be very pleased, it would probably be cheaper and definably more reliable. Thats just my opinion as a Otis tech.

BTW the prices these guys are giving are just to buy the controller, the much more expensive part is the labor to put it all in adjust and inspect.

Compass (or whatever the other companies call it)is the biggest waste of money in the installation industry at the moment, the amount of buildings are very limited in which it would be useful and in this case has only 4 passenger lifts so isnt worth the expense anyway. And Green pants I think youve worked for them for too long, agree that it is probably one of the best on the market, but most definitly NOT the cheapest.

Can someone explain Compass? What else could you possibly need besides Traffic Management?

Compass is a destination dispatching program that when you walk into a lift foyer you punch the floor you are going to into a keypad (or use your security swipe)and then you will be directed to a lift (could be any in the bank) that is supposidly going to get you to your floor faster, and then you dont have to push the button in the lift as will already know where you and anyone else is going.

I am not a fan of the pre-destination dispatchers because they really only work better in certain types of buildings. If you have for example a government building or higher security type of building, they could work well. The idea being that people arrive and go to a certain floor on a consistent basis. On the other hand if you have an office building with a pretty random type of traffic it doesn't work well. It's not that the system doesn't work but rather that people don't generally pay attention to what elevator they get on much less even the direction they want to go. In low rise applications the typical ETS based dispatcher works good enough. You can only get so fancy when it comes down to dispatching four elevators over the range of 10-16 floors.

There was an Australian study on the relative benefits of destination dispatching. They showed clearly traffic patterns in various types of buildings, and had a conclusion at the end. Destination dispatch doesn't help all buildings. I'll post the link when I find it.

I was being sarcastic about the non proprietary equip. Here at Otis we like to keep our equipment to ourselves. There is an advantage for it but not always. Most mod jobs are being installed with compass now and customers love it. I agree it is not for every building configuration though.

sounds like a pretty typical Otis mindset...lol

Hear Hear, i turned to greener pastures after many years with the Big O , and that was my mindset too!!!! after being lobtomised with their ways of doing things ,Im finally starting to grow the brain back again

http://www.lifteye.co.nz/LEC%20Articles/Q1.pdf

Link has many interesting things, with a good bit on destination dispatch studies.

Yeah Yeah all KONE (and others) BS of course they would say all that technospeak they wouldnt rubbish there own equipment would they??? They and the other companies have spend millions on a technology that would really only work in a few buildings...I suppose they have to try to upsell their projects and hope the consultants and project managers get duped by the (false) claims of the uselessness of this sistem.

resentment i sense.

No not resentment mate, just enough years in the industry to know that something like this is just not worth the effort and money spent. I suppose we will all have to get used to it if and when we ever see one, just more complex equipment we wont be trained on or have even seen then expected to repair it usually on an after hrs callout.

Hmm, well, what I got out of the study was that it is NOT an advantage in all buildings. I mean, it's not like they said it's super-duper wonderful, works everywhere, blah, blah. I thought it was a fair assesment.