Westinghouse 2BC-RL 1963 Won't Run

We've been taking care of this dinosaur for about a decade now and are a little stumped. Car has been shut down for a few days now at the main floor (2nd landing). All fuses are good. The car will hold calls, but won't leave the floor. Relays 29 (safety circuit), and the two door relays (40 something. I forget which two) are both energized. If I switch to machine room inspection and hold 306 relay (top floor call) it will pull in the up direction relays, but car won't move. If I push in the main "1" contactor the car will travel up which rules out motor, main power, phase relays, etc. Peele door controller.

We did find a melted resistor on both of the 72TC relays (see pics) and think this could be related to our issue considering it looks like a set of contacts off 72T control the 1 relay. We're troubleshooting with a set of Westinghouse motor generator prints, but this unit does not have an MG set. Wondering if anyone potentially has a better set of prints? Think i'm on the right track or any ideas? I'll definitely update when we figure it out!

Burnt 72TC relay. Zoom in
Pic of Controller
Controller Tag

do you have freight doors? If so does the cam retire?

Peele freight doors (relays, no solid state). Great question. I don't think the retiring cam is pulling in when we put in a call or try to run on machine room inspection as the Peele door controller is silent (no relays energizing, or at least none that I could hear).

The mechanic I was with claimed the retiring cam was pulling in when we pushed in a relay on the Peele door. We didn't actually verify from the car though.

can you run it off the controller? using Potential and Up or Dn relays? if so - when you try to run auto or inspection does the same relays (up/dn and potential) pick? Could be bad coil on one of those relays.

There isn't a potential on this controller, but a 1 and 2 relay for up and down. I went back to this elevator yesterday and made it worse than it was before lol. I can't latch calls and it's 10 inches below the bottom floor. I didn't have time to try and figure out how to get it off the bottom final. Any idea the easiest way to get off the final? Following the wiring on the back of the controller is basically impossible.

Before I sent the car into the pit I could run the car up and down by pressing in either the number 1 or 2 relay. After releasing the down contactor one time, the car stopped, but then acted like it was trying to answer a floor call above it by going back up and then going into leveling on its own. It only did this one time though.

Another note of importance, the synchronous selector isn't moving in the controller. I don't see it listed anywhere on my set of prints.

You can probably drift it off the bottom final. Lift the brake, you may have to help it by prying on the brake pulley.

Just to clarify, this is a single speed or two-speed machine. Is that right? When it is on automatic, are all 60 relays in? 60, 60A, 60B,etc. You should be able to move the car up by opening the brake and turning the shaft between the brake and machine. Which machine do you have? 81U and 81D signal that the controller sees the calls, are they (either) in? 82U and 82D tell the selector to move. Do you have a monkey on a stick, or a relay selector?Is T69 in? terminal relay at top. Can you drift te car up above te bottom floor, so that all doors can be closed and retiring cam not have an effect? If above the slowdown, will the car run down automatically?

its been years since I played with a circle bar W, so some relay nomenclature may be wrong

We're going back Monday. It's a two speed machine. I'm not sure if all the 60 relays are in, but I think 60 is at least. Great tip on opening the brake and turning the shaft to bring it off final. Haven't had to do that in years i forgot about that trick. We are getting 81U or 81D to pull in depending on the direction of the call latched. I've heard the "monkey on a stick term," but not exactly sure what it looks like. There is a motor on top of a shaft that I can spin and the selector will go up or down and make/brake all sorts of sets of contacts as it moves. It is not moving when I run the car off the contactors though which might be my problem. I don't remember a T69, but i'll check. I definitely had the car in between floors, with calls latched and it not going anywhere which, I believe, isolates the retiring cam from being an issue like you said. I'll update monday after we play around with it again!

You have just described a monkey on a stick. It will not move when you just push in the main contactors. It only moves when you trip the switches on the tape and then it obviously only goes to the next floor. Is the selector at the bottom? I dont remember which relays pull in to move the selector. Have you jumped the main lines directly to the high speed motor leads to verify the motor? It shouldnt be a real problem to trace the wiring from main lines to the motor. Look at the selector and see that the made contacts are breaking and that the open contacts are making when the wing on the traveling nut is in contact with the stack contacts. Also, 1 and 2 are up and down, but I believe that there is another common relay (in series with 1 and 2) that is required for the motor to run. There are also starter grids that get jumped out when you start the motor. If one of them is open, the motor will either single phase or not hum at all. You said that you were getting 81U and 81D, if you are at the bottom, you should not be able to get 81D. Check your B69, I believe that it should be out when at the bottom.

Adams makes or at least made a kit that extended the action of the selector that occurs when the contact button is worn.

IM NYguy or Wrench6 and see if they have info on that selector and wiring for it. Also ask them if they have a better print than you have.

Send me your email and I will send a couple of older Westinghouse prints for single speed and two-speed machines. That may give you some more information.

The normally closed contact on 4a was NOT making up well preventing the latched calls from sending the car. Now, car continually travels between top and bottom floor. Is the selector out of sync? It seems like the selector auto corrects though

Selector should auto correct. If it doesnt, just put it on insp and turn the screw until the movable nut is at the correct position. When you run the car, does the selector go ahead of the car? It should move one floor above or below the car and wait for the elev to catch up. If there is a stop registered, the selector will stay until the call is answered and the car takes off again. Is te selector continually running when the car takes off? I think the 72 circuit is what signals a stop for the elev. Also, the selector contacts will also play into the circuit.

Also, auto correct only corrects when the car reaches a terminal landing

Selector notches and jumps. It doesn't run continuously.

Sounds like the selector is working correctly. There is a relay tat picks to tell the elevator that a stop is necessary. Gotta find that relay. Look for welded contacts, and worn or out of position ladders on your relays. It is hard to tell if a NO contact is making or not, but you jneed to look at every one

2nd floor rear call normally open set of contacts was stuck closed. This rear floor landing was allegedly removed years ago. Always go through and check all relays for normally open and normally closed contacts! Thanks Johnny for the diagrams and everyone else!