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T III

Posted By: elevatedone

T III - 08/31/12 11:20 PM

So,I have this Dover T3 and it goes down every once in awhile,usually a 87 and 12 fault.
That would be 87-brakeswitch and 12 something going wrong in the cartop selector.

My question is when I measure the voltage coming from the selector power supply,what should I measure?
I am measuring 15 volts,that is if I am measuring the place from the power supply.
Posted By: Johnny

Re: T III - 09/01/12 12:09 AM

12 is a parity error. Check placement of your BP magnets. you may want to swap PMI modules with another car and see if problem follows. Also look at your guides. They are critical. Rule of thumb--when front to back play exceeds 1 thickness of the selector tape, you should order and replace at next service visit. In a pinch, you can flip all left sides with the right sides and use the unused guides. The power supply is a 15vdc. 15.2 or 15.5 would be good. There is also 24V supplied to the selector for the outputs. You may have a line drop in voltage. I usually run my 24 volt supplies up as high as 26vdc, at the power supply, if possible. But this is your call.
Posted By: elevatedone

Re: T III - 09/01/12 02:00 AM

Thanks,man.
You are funny,service visit!
A call back is when I go to a unit.
All humor aside,wow,1 millimeter will cause problems.
The guides were flipped a few months ago,and they still look good,but a little wear.
Will replace on next callback.

Now,anyone got an answer to a Armour dynaglide problem?
Posted By: Broke_Sheave

Re: T III - 09/02/12 03:36 PM

There is a life span on the PMI modules, and YES they do go intermittant...(Life Span was around 10 years)..

Change out all PMI's in the Reader box, and any others associated with it in the PMI boards upstairs.
Posted By: elevatedone

Re: T III - 09/03/12 02:21 AM

I replaced the selector board and pmi modules also.
Just wait and see.
Posted By: elevatedone

Re: T III - 10/03/12 02:14 AM

Still having shutdowns,almost daily now.
Main fault,Brake fault.

Replaced every pmi module,relay,brake switch, and what not.

I was running it on inspection from the MR today and about every 5 or 6 starts( I was running it a couple of feet at a time),the brake would pick,the motor would turn maybe slightly,the stop,then the brake would drop.When I press the down,or up button again,it would run.
No faults would show.
Posted By: Broke_Sheave

Re: T III - 10/03/12 01:31 PM

Do you have a monitor in the machine room?

IF SO....

You can take a video camera, film the I/O's, and then walk off and leave it recording the I/O screen. You can then wade through all the video footage to the approximate time of the call back, and then slow the footage down to a few seconds before the fault occured. You can then see I/O responsible for fault.

Just a suggestion.
Posted By: charlie

Re: T III - 10/03/12 02:34 PM

Bls module. Change it.
Posted By: E-man

Re: T III - 10/03/12 10:07 PM

Have you done a brake job? When I've had 87s, it was either the BLS module, brake contact or the brake was sluggish and/or not adjusted correctly. I would also check all connections, contacts and voltages in the brake pick/hold circuit.
Posted By: elevatedone

Re: T III - 10/03/12 10:30 PM

Broke sheave,very good ideal.
I will bring it up with the super.


Charlie,I need to check into that as we have had several mechs working on this problem for at least 6 months or more,then it was dumped on me.


E-man,doing a brake job is my next step if I or someone else goes.
A little short handed ,so getting to it is an issue.
That part is out of my hands,I'm just a tech following orders.

It's an old geared montgomery machine with a brake virtually the same as what is used for dover composites.
It's a mod with a dc motor and generator.

BTW,thanks guys! Some info posted here has helped me with other issues on other units.
Posted By: E311

Re: T III - 10/03/12 11:08 PM

If its a MECO geared machine check your brake pick and hold voltages. Most of these were 230vdc and a BUNCH of mod jobs that I have adjusted have had the brake supply topped out at 200vdc because the wrong power supply was ordered. These brakes can be very touchy if not properly adjusted and maintained.
Posted By: Elevatorman

Re: T III - 10/04/12 08:13 PM

I had this very problem a few years ago. I ran the car a while before it occured. Only faulted when door preopened while stopping at a landing. It turned out to be a contact on the DZ relay. Replaced DZ1 & DZ2 relays. Good luck.
Posted By: sbrmilitia

Re: T III - 10/05/12 02:12 AM

Tear it out throw some swift in and fix all those problems.
Posted By: Broke_Sheave

Re: T III - 10/05/12 02:14 AM

Originally Posted By: sbrmilitia
Tear it out throw some swift in and fix all those problems.


T3 is basically a Swift 5000. True not a Futura or Meridia, but definitely it's predecessor.
Posted By: sbrmilitia

Re: T III - 10/05/12 02:48 AM

Futura just like a tac 50.....Best controller on the market
Posted By: Broke_Sheave

Re: T III - 10/05/12 02:34 PM

Short bit of history.

Swift was founded in the early 80's by a engineer, salesman extraordinaire, ex-Westinghouse/Millar engineer, by the name of Jean Pierre. The control that came out 1st was the Swift 5000. Available in either drive (GE300 or Generator) Configuration.

Dover and Otis put in several of these under a naming convention.

Otis = ModMaster
Dover = MicroModernizer 2 (MM2)

Both are identical to the Swift 5000 but with a name change.

Dover at the time was struggling to come up with a competitive Microprocessor based elevator. All they had to compete was the T2.

A deal was struck, allowing Dover to purchase copyright on all software, and hardware from Swift, and thus was born the T3, which for a few modifications is identical to the Swift 5000.

Dover which turned into Thyssen, still uses the same labeling convention for I/O's to this day on their elevators, and has purchased Swift outright for non-proprietary modernizations.
Posted By: E-man

Re: T III - 10/05/12 08:08 PM

I heard Dover's initial T ( 1 and 2 )products failed miserably and they had to make a move, thus choosing a more proven successful control = Swift.
Posted By: sbrmilitia

Re: T III - 10/06/12 02:01 AM

Tac-50 Board rack model, it same thing as a swift futura. I wish I had 300 of nothing but these on my route
Posted By: E-man

Re: T III - 10/06/12 02:25 AM

Me too. I'd give up my 80 jobs with pie plates and generators in a heartbeat.
Posted By: Smitty

Re: T III - 10/07/12 04:57 AM

Cool history. Now let me add to it. Before Jean Pierre founded Swift he worked for Millar Industries in New York. They had put his IBM SBC8825 processor board system on top of really what was Thames Valley relay controls. They called the equipment CVT (computerized vertical transportation) Hmmm. as to the Computerized Elevator Controls.All of the parameters were very very similar to Swift.. for example ASU (automatic setup)command used to be PSU (program setup). ACR (acceleration rate) used to be ACC. And so almost all the commands were changed by one letter. Sort of the difference between Spanish and Portuguese. Instead of the PMI cards they had racks with rows of modules such as Status Input, Status Output, Digitizer etc. They had a handheld tool that was a real pain to use although the Tandy computer worked on this as well. Westinghouse marketed it as an overlay product known as Macroscan, or Microscan. When I used to work for Millar we put in CVT stuff. We didn't work on Swift because at the time the two companies were in court under patent infringement issues. Jean Pierre won out and ended up making a much better controller. T III is basically a blue Swift 5000 cabinet with a Dover operator and a slightly different leveling unit.
Posted By: uppo72

Re: T III - 10/07/12 12:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Broke_Sheave
Short bit of history.

Swift was founded in the early 80's by a engineer, salesman extraordinaire, ex-Westinghouse/Millar engineer, by the name of Jean Pierre. The control that came out 1st was the Swift 5000. Available in either drive (GE300 or Generator) Configuration.

Dover and Otis put in several of these under a naming convention.

Otis = ModMaster
Dover = MicroModernizer 2 (MM2)

Both are identical to the Swift 5000 but with a name change.

Dover at the time was struggling to come up with a competitive Microprocessor based elevator. All they had to compete was the T2.

A deal was struck, allowing Dover to purchase copyright on all software, and hardware from Swift, and thus was born the T3, which for a few modifications is identical to the Swift 5000.

Dover which turned into Thyssen, still uses the same labeling convention for I/O's to this day on their elevators, and has purchased Swift outright for non-proprietary modernizations.


question broke. why would otis need to install someone else's gear? cost?
Posted By: uppo72

Re: T III - 10/07/12 12:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Smitty
Cool history. Now let me add to it. Before Jean Pierre founded Swift he worked for Millar Industries in New York. They had put his IBM SBC8825 processor board system on top of really what was Thames Valley relay controls. They called the equipment CVT (computerized vertical transportation) Hmmm. as to the Computerized Elevator Controls.All of the parameters were very very similar to Swift.. for example ASU (automatic setup)command used to be PSU (program setup). ACR (acceleration rate) used to be ACC. And so almost all the commands were changed by one letter. Sort of the difference between Spanish and Portuguese. Instead of the PMI cards they had racks with rows of modules such as Status Input, Status Output, Digitizer etc. They had a handheld tool that was a real pain to use although the Tandy computer worked on this as well. Westinghouse marketed it as an overlay product known as Macroscan, or Microscan. When I used to work for Millar we put in CVT stuff. We didn't work on Swift because at the time the two companies were in court under patent infringement issues. Jean Pierre won out and ended up making a much better controller. T III is basically a blue Swift 5000 cabinet with a Dover operator and a slightly different leveling unit.


we used westinghouse running gear on agreement years ago but we also had a scanner used on landing button inputs/up and down peaks and call dispatch. is this the microscanner you talk about?
Posted By: Broke_Sheave

Re: T III - 10/07/12 04:26 PM

Uppo...
Otis put in the Swift and renamed it for jobs that required, a total Made in the USA clause..(IE government) or that specifically spelled out NON-Proprietary..

And Smitty..You got it.

I've worked on the Microscan's of that vintage. Also the 8825 SBC could be bought off the shelf from Intel, and could then be used by developers for design purposes. The Westinghouse Epoch 1 control, uses the 8825 SBC as well.
Posted By: Smitty

Re: T III - 10/08/12 09:53 PM

The ones I worked on that were on the Westinghouse equipment were really a car control and dispatcher that could be switched over if needed to the old dispatcher. Neat idea but dubious as to if would work since the old dispatcher probably sucked in the first place. Otherwise you would have not sold the mod. We had a few flavors of the CVT product. Some of them used an Amicon generator regulator, some a Valuetrol drive( analog GE drive) and later they went to the GE DC300E drive. They also later incorporated a small computer running UNIX as a primitive artificial intelligent dispatcher. The idea was sort of a data matrix storage in 15 minute increments in which the car would compare what it did a day or week ago at the same time. I am not convinced it actually learned anything but I did learn UNIX because of it which was a good thing.
Posted By: elevatedone

Re: T III - 10/09/12 01:34 AM

Where is the smiley for banging my head on the wall????

I was reading through the log (yes we kept a log of everything everyone has done),and I noticed a basic thing that hadn't been done.

Routine the controller,tightened all the connections.
This has been a simple tool I have used over the years.

I found a bunch of loose connections on all the brake resistors.
If I can get a couple of turns with my tweeker,it's loose!!!

I will see,but I do believe it is the root of my problem.
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