Dover composite

I'm having problems with 2 Composite units. They start to take off from the floor and then they stop and level back in. Either direction. I've never really worked on this type before and I'm kind stumpped. Any help would be great. They have optical sensors

Do you have the prints for the job? Are they geared or gearless? Does this happen only on normal? Are you dropping the gate switch, door locks or safety circuit? "UA" for up and "DA" for down are self holding in respect to other relays-you may have a problem with the relay contacts that feed the self holding UA or DA. If it happens in both directions check your "CS" relays-the contacts on all the IBM style relays are prone to issues.

I second E311. Also be very careful around those old IBM relays and if you replace one, I've had the best luck with Yellowjacket replacement relays, the IBM copies you get from Adams are garbage.

I like being able to trace the circuit and with yellows you cannot. If you tape your time and bend points/replace wires/ adjust pick with the screws on you the IBM relays work well. Just slow down and start at the beginning. The worst thing you could do would to just swapping IBM's around. The wires cross up easily and the bases get bent even easier. Also check the push in coil wires.

I've always heard not to use the Yellow Jackets and yes the Adams IBM relays last about 2 weeks if you're lucky...

I love dover composites....off topic but Composites are king

SBRMILTIA...I get up every morning and say a little prayer for you guys. LOL..

Becoming a disappearing breed. One of my best friends, who was a composite ace, just recently passed away. Guys that know that equipment are getting fewer and fewer every day..

Cheers!!!

Here is an old school tip from one of the old school boys that I used to work with. The IBM relays have a plastic piece on the bottom of the coil to the relay. This plastic piece starts out white. Over the years the piece turns yellow and dries out and becomes very brittle. This plastic will then break a peice off due to the relay picking and dropping. When a small piece of the plastic breaks sometime it will fall and keep the relay from picking intermitantly. The best thing to do is to take a small screwdriver or an orange peeling stick and tap all the plastic pieces till you find the ones that are brittle. When you find those they are usually darker than the rest, you break the plastic off of the relay coil altogether. I have never had a problem with these gone, But I have had so many jobs that I have cleaned up just by doing this. Those little pieces that break off can cause such nightmares that I can't even begin to tell you.
I have the composite adjusters manual on pdf if anyone wants it. Just email me and I will try to get it to you. no guarentees but I will try.

Another for those who have good eyesight..

Pull out IBM relay.
Hold relay up to a light and look through the contacts.
You should see daylight through N/O contacts.
Pick relay by hand.
Now you should see daylight through N/C contacts

If Not...Bad contact.

Now when I was young and worked for an independent company, we didn't buy a relay and replace it. My boss would give me pill bottle with 500 needle contacts and I would replace contacts by hand. Pretty easy actually on the 4 pole relays. The 12 pole (Like CS) were a bit more challenging....Needle contacts could be purchased for 10 cents a piece.

lol i had one of those bosses

I have one of those IBM relay testers on the van, so far it has been 100% accurate.

Yep...Those are indeed very cool.

Marbles, Without a print in front of me I dont remember the contact. But you should have a contact that keeps you from seeing your leveling contacts when you take off....... And as far as rebuilding IBM relays between Dover and US equipment I wish I had a buck for each one I have rebuilt. Another trick I learned is the plate on top of the relay can be loosened and adjusted to add x-tra tension to the NC contacts. And will make all kinds of problems go away.

Excellent pointers on how to keep the original style IBMs working. Its amazing how reliable and long lasting the originals have been, (made in the USA)? But going back to my post, I've personally never had to replace a yellow jacket replacement (after ten years on some jobs) or whatever they call the replacements now. Yes, you can't meter the pins, but they do have have the handy coil energized L.E.D. Great thread.

just a question do both elevators do this and do they do this at the same time? are they both at the landing and both take off at the same time then level in? or do the both do it independently?

LSP pulls in with MOB in the 2f circuit. When lsp is in, leveling is disconnected. When MOB drops, or 2F speed switch drops, LSP drops out and leveling is enabled. Either LSP relay or MOB contact is probably your problem. Do you have a print for the job?

I'm only 27 but I learned on composites and b base. Out of the young guns out here I'm one of the very few with this knowledge. I just got added another highrise on my route with MiProm 21 and I'm getting humbled real quick. I rather work on a rotary Dover then junk. Which I also have a few on my route.

I think on some jobs the original style IBMs relays work much better. If you call your supplier and they say they are no longer make. You might try looking on the internet. I found a place that makes them to the original IBM specs every day.

Lsp screens your optical leveling also make sure your not rolling the top pickup assembly roller and blipping the lock. As for the IBM's take your flashlight and look across the top of the relays at the wire contact potion sticking out of the top...see how many you have that have turned and fallen down inside of the relay thus making a n.o contact and n.c contact!! Now after you have checked all of them start looking across the bottom of the relays at the coil leads you will be surprised how many you find backed out....SE, U,D,UA,DA..

Hey SB , can you describe what a and b base otis gear is? The high rise otis gear we have here is generally 260vip gearless. Is this the same?

Unsure of your question Uppo?

A and B base refer to dispatching schemes. They are basicall identical, except A base was used mostly on touch button systems, and had multiple diagnostic cards you could plug into the card rack, and B Base was used with regular push buttons, and had one diagnostic board.

Both were based on VIP 260 logic, but transferred from relay form to DTL logic. (DTL = Diode Transistor Logic)

And to confuse things more, there was a CB base. Basically a B base dispatcher, but additonal boards that read flags in the hatch for Selector functions. Basically the 1st Otis that I'm aware of that did not have a mechanical selector.

Also check for bent connectors on IBM relay bases as well. I have had those whip my butt on occasion. Peace.

Thanks broke i think you answered my question. I've worked on the touchbutton control(nightmares they are) feeding multiple cards on the lift no1 selector. I'm pretty sure this was the only high rise type here, with normal button style button types used with a geared machine and selector version for small applications. The next generation of otis lifts were the 401's and no cb base types. I've just read over the time posters stating a or b base and not really sure what they were referring to. Thanks mate.

Ah....Touch Buttons and Balanced Bridge detectors...The good old days..

One of my first few days on the job, 35 years ago, my boss tells me..

"That tenite cover is loose over the door detector. Reach in behind it and tighten it up"..

Let's just say that 1000 cycle wouldn't kill you but it would make you hurt yourself trying to get away from you..

Of course he thought it was hilarious. Different times for sure..

ha i know what you mean. Touch buttons, saturable reactors on the pdo, old lambda with the high frequency were all stuff we, as newish mechanics freshly bought out by Otis all had to learn let alone fricken selectors that our company had p****d off 20 years earlier!

And those old pranksters soon realised not to piss us off as we fight back.

Sounds like LSP isn't picking and locking out leveling. Look there.

Sounds like LSP isn't picking and locking out leveling. Look there.

One year later, I hope you found your problem, he-he. But I think as stated, UA and DA are respectively held in by SU and SD contacts I think. So, if SU or SD are dropping out for some reason, that would cause UA or DA to drop out hence allowing CS to come in and the car then relevels. So, check all contacts in the SU and SD circuits. Wish I had some prints. peace-out.

Problem with the Yellow Jacket relays is that the solder connections on the back of the relay can touch the contacts in the wire contact relay base. This can short circuits together not meant to be. I personally have been involved in trouble shooting three such occurances, twice while at Dover and once after leaving. All were documented, the first two bothto Dover and to World and the third to Works and Otis. No once seemed concerned. Best replacement is a new relay from Vertex and they aren't expensive.

.....the Vip260 is also gearless umv control system..had many of those cars in one building...the Test card in the operational controller slot YK..was a worth its weight in gold..

And another thing, I'm sorry to read that you young guys haven't learned what us old farts found out a long time ago. Those yellow jacket relays are crap. Just because they have an "led" on the front, everyone thinks they must be great. Well, they're not. Put in the relay that the base was made for guys. And like I said, you have to maintain SU and SD once you pick MO, or you're going to stop and relevel.

^^^^^^^^👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

Yeah most of the vip 260's I worked on was gearless at around 30 floors.

Aqua, could you please email me the composite adjusters manual? montanaelevator@gmail.com

Thanks so much,

Montana