TAC 20

Hey,
I have a TAC 20 elevator in my Condo. I am not sure what boards are in it etc.

I am interested in learning the gear and a bit of the code(canada), as a side project. I am NOT interested in this stuff as a DIY project or anything of that nature.

I head the maintenance division of my condo board and I try to learn as much as I can about the equipment in our building such that I can have informed conversations with our tradesmen/service techs.

Right now I am looking for service manuals and reading material. I can upload some pics if you guys want to help me identify components/controllers.

If this goes against the intent/purpose of these forums that's ok. A lot of trades aren't interested in dealing with people like me.

(o:
Thanks

Tac 20 does not have much to it, Solid State starter, a few relays, the large IOC board and a couple communication boards. Your building should have a owners verison manual from Thyssen When we installed the job.

I don't think we have an owner's manual.

If it is this:
http://thyssenkruppelevator.com/downloads/OwnersGuide.pdf

It is a bit thin on information. Are there service manuals available somewhere?

Canada's code differs by province... Ontario's is fairly strict, whereas as Quebec's is nearly non-existent... where abouts are you located?

Just looked at that pdf... definitely NOT an owners manual... what specifically are you looking to do or learn?

EDMAn:

I am in Alberta. I thought the code used was B44 across Canada? Also I looked at the trade body and I was surprised that you are not a Red Seal trade despite being inter-provincially mobile and all the training coming from the same organization which I also a subset of the umbrella international organization. Love governments that can't get their Crap together.

I suppose the best thing would be to find the owner's manual and go from there.

Some of the inspection/repair/maintenance code would be handy as well, but without a strong vocabulary of the trade it might be a little over my head.

Im not sure how Canada codes work but here in states there is a tag on the controller to what ASME code to inspect too.

Who do you have a maintenance contract with? If it is Thyssen ask for a Maintenance Check Chart it shows what the tech will check every visit. If it is only and Oil and Grease contract then things change the tech will look for leaks make sure the oil level is correct and most things on call backs are billable. Also Thyssen should have what they call a BEEP manual on the job that covers our maintenance program. On the building end of things you should check fire service once a month Phase 1 and Phase 2 also check the intercom.

sbrmilitia:
I have our contract here, and it is with Thyssen.



There is some paperwork in the controller cabinet. I didn't pull it out of the sleeve but it looked like circuit prints. I'll have a closer look.

One of the projects I am working on it gathering information on what our tradesmen are actually doing in the building and making sure that they are complying with our expectations/contracts. I will ask for a Maintenance Check Chart. Do you have customers that are as involved as I want to be with this? IE - receive documentation that the checks are being done and what exactly is being looked at? How does that usually play out?

BEEP - This is an acronym for what exactly? Again, I'll have a look around in the equipment room for docs.

CSA codes are usually around 80 dollars to purchase. If anyone has access to a spare copy I can have that would be nice. I'm one of the few people out there who likes to read codes. I am a code master for my own trade. =)

Another contract question, as per this line:



We do not have the technical knowledge to lockout the elevator and open the lower door to inspect the pit. Half a year ago the pit was found flooded by one of the techs. We have no idea how long the water was down there, presumably since the last inspection. The pit was cleaned out and life carried on.

Recently the painted steel in the shaft was found to be rusting and peeling. It had just been repainted shortly before the flooding in the pit area happened. The building is only 5 years old, and we live in a semi-arid region.

My concerns are of course related to how do we achieve satisfaction of our contractual obligations as quoted above without proper access and/or training to the pit. It seems clear to me closer oversight is required. Can I get some advice on how to approach this general problem of oversight?

I think the gory details of the flooding and having to paint a new shaft/pit twice in one year is settled and ended up on us, mostly through capitulation I think. Going forward I think we need to learn to manage our assets better.

So that is in part where I am coming from. The rest is my life quest for knowledge.

Beep is Basic Elevator and Escalator Procedure, if you have one required in Canada it should have all the maintenance and some code info in the book. The US BEEP covers this. Any questions about your contract and what it covers should be refered to a service rep in the office you have the contract with, they can tell you what is your contract coverage and it can vary greatly. I do not know if TKE Vista is available in Canada but if it is this will allow you online access to service records and callbacks. Please do not get in pit without your service provider present, ask your route mechanic what they think about the rust. If it becomes an issue Rustoleum make a paint primer that stops rust on rusted metal.

You have to have a tech let you in the pit. You sign a indemnity agreement before you are let in. If yours elevator runs with a limited amount of callbacks and you see your tech regulary then maintenance is getting done.

You can also hire a consultant to perform a maintenane evaluation.

Tac-20s does not have inspection switches in the controller. Its extremely dangrous if you try to enter the pit or hatch.

Keep up good communication with your tech. If you have any concerns he will be more then happy to address them for you.

lae, what your referring to about water damage is to indemnify the lift contractor of any damage caused by water infiltration. In other words the provision is not really for the owners to inspect the pit area moreso that they are liable for any damage. It can get quite flooded, infact ive had a complete basement floor flooded to the ceiling shorting out both old(56') Otis lifts, which used old VIR trailing cables that had to be completely rewired and the water washed away all terminal markings making the job twice as long. I think the job cost around 10k to fix. It goes without saying the owners wish they were more vigilant about any leaks. By the way remember you should have building insurance to cover losses.

We don't use BEEPs in Ontario. B44 has an appendix which lays out what monthly/yearly maintenance tasks must be completed. But Thyssen is moving awin y from that, as this appendix is being scrapped and the code will soon state that a maintenance control program must be in place. That program (MCP) will require documentation to be left in your machine room, outlining what tasks need to be preformed in what intervals. I'm assuming that'll be our version of a BEEP.

I definitely agree with sbrmilitia... maintain a good relationship and dialogue with your tech... he'll be the only one who can give you the good answers you're looking for. Not trying to take away from the account reps, but they rarely have any field experience...

Do you have an inspection authority for elevating devices in Alberta? We have the TSSA (tssa.org) who conduct periodic inspections. They are sworn-in officers of the province (carry a badge and all). I've found them much better to deal with than consultants...

Sorry for the really long reply time on this. Changed jobs and so forth.

I read through the maintenance log book. The tech seems fairly organized. Maintenance tends to happen about every 3 months, as per our contract.

The pit was never painted according to the log book, only rust was removed, this was just prior to flooding. So clearly there is some misscommunication going on. I'd like for the tech to just talk to us when there is a problem but the chances of meeting bumping into him seems small.

The real problem starts with the flooding. The tech otes in the log book that here is 4" of water in the pit. The next day he notes there is about 6" of water in the pit. Five weeks go by and there is 1.5' of water in the pit and there has been electrical damage.

The first time the condo board heard about any of this was after the entire thing, when we got the bill, which was huge.

If the board doesn't have access to look in the pit(not enter) how can we be contractually responsible for maintaining it in good order as per

Lastly, it seems some negligence was involved here with Thyssen. The tech did a good job but something got f'ed up somewhere between him and the board.

Is there a point of contact at the building that the service guy can check in with? If there is he needs to be letting this person know of any issues with the building. The point of contact is usually a building maintenance guy or property manager.

Why not have an alarm company install a high water level alarm in the pit? If it goes off, call your elevator tech to open the doors for you to have a look.

The Thyssen Service Tech should lock and tag out the elevator. Is it not Thyssens responsibility to remove water from the pit. The car should be locked and tagged out at the top floor and jack stands installed in the pit, the tech then should get with the building to schedule a time for a high water alarm and sump pump to be installed. The car should not be allowed back into service until the building resolves the flooding issue. All rusted equipment and electrical equipment should be changed and billed to the customer. Building personal shouldn't be allowed to access a pit without a Thyssen Mechanic on site since we take the liability for any accidents that happens on that unit. If you cannot fully resolve the flooding issue then a alarm and sump needs to be installed asap. Also since the pit had water damage you also should be billed for the pit to be painted or hire a contractor to do it while a TK employee supervises the accessing of the pit. Since you are being billed for it, request someone else besides the tech to come and be on the property for the couple days it will take to install the alarm, sump, dry the pit out, change all affected equipment, and to paint the pit. A billable repair mechanic should be there. The service tech has a route and calls holding and cant be there for the time needed to properly take care of your problem. Yes this will be costly but in the long run it will save you big. You need to get ahold of the Thyssen office get a signed proposal that has the scope of work and the time allotted. Then there is no miss communication.

There is a sump in the pit, always has been. The building is only 5 years old. The sump somehow malfunctioned and failed to push water out of the pit.

A high water alarm would be intelligent.

I'm not sure where we stand on the billing/work completed, the elevator is in service though. Apparently there was a rust issue before the flooding event, need to get some more info from Thyssen on the timeline.

Thyssen has access to our maintenance personal they just failed to notify use in a timely fashion until significant damage was done.

Aside: Do you really use jack stands 4 stories high? Or is there some other mechanical method to secure the car?

Exactly.

Don't you guys just love it that not only are you responsible for every part on the elevator, regardless of age, but some building owners want you to responsible for acts of nature, vandalism, the list goes on and on.

Broke: I have no problems with the contract and our obligations, or the techs.

I do agree with SBR that the elevator should have immediately been locked out and the ball thrown in our court. I would have been more then happy to have that scenario go down. It would have been safer for everyone and the problem could have been headed off before catastrophic levels of water pooled. I'm sure you techs love jumping into electrified pools of water!

Anyway, I am not here to bitch to you guys. I am here to listen to what people like SBR are saying because I don't know what would have been an appropriate course of action, but SBR's comments are telling me that what did go down was definitely not it.

It's a hydro right? It's thyssenkrupp policy to put jack stands in if any work that takes longer then 15 mins in the pit. Does not mean the car needs to be landed on them just if something fails the car would be stopped by the stands instead of your head

Yeah, it's hydraulic.

It's funny that I work under and around hydraulically suspended loads all day... I guess the difference is the confined space.

Is the pit technically considered a confined space? And needs all those confined space treatments?

Lae
Here is a link for you.

http://www.neii.org/pdf/OSHA%20Confined%20Spaces%20Regulations.pdf

No elevator pits are not a permit required confined space

That depends. At certain plants they are. It depends on whats manufactured/tested onsite... Chemical plants for example...

What I meant is, it is thyssenkrupps policy we do not work in permit required confined spaces. The pit must be de classified, what made it a permit required space in the first place? What IDLH situation exists? Whatever that is it has to be mitigated so a NON permit confined space can be achieved. If the pit cannot be declassified then we do not do the work. But in a condo there shouldn't be any IDLH situations.

Per OSHA, a confined space is defined as a space you cannot readily walk out of. A pit that requires a ladder for egress, by definition is a confined space. Walk in pits by themselves have a normal path of egress. Of course atmospheric/obstruction/equipment (walk in pit where the toe-guard impedes the path) conditions can come into play also.