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#18915 - 12/10/16 06:24 PM MRL preference  
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 141
Boa Offline
member
Boa  Offline
member

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 141
NC
Need opinions. Have a customer that is renovating one of his buildings, replacing existing with an MRL. Contractor has quotes from Schindler and Otis. He's asking my opinion, unfortunately I have no experience with MRLs other than 1 Kone and surveying a couple. Need to know reliability, ease of service (can a third party take care of?), any points that I can assist my client in his decision making other than Otis is more expensive.
Thanks

#18917 - 12/10/16 10:15 PM Re: MRL preference [Re: Boa]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 330
ABE Offline
Mechanic
ABE  Offline
Mechanic

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 330
Unfortunately none of the MRL products from the majors are real great. They of course all have propriety controls which will be difficult for others to work on. The Schindler(3300) and Otis(Gen2) product both utilize propriety suspension belts that are very expensive if they will even sell them to a 3rd party. The Kone eco space uses regular cables but has poor reliability with drives brakes and circuit boards. TKE uses regular cables as well and Torin machines which any one can buy parts for. Their hydro MRL is about the same as their standard hydro with the exception of the tank and controller being in different locations as well as using a electronic Bucher valve as opposed the I2. With the TKE equipment there is still the proprietary controller issue but anyone one can purchase the major mechanical items without going to TKE.

If it were me I would recommend going with a MRL package from MEI, Canton, or MCE. They use non-proprietary controls and typically use Holister Whitney or imperial P/M gearless machines. They may be more expensive upfront but anyone can service and get parts for them. A wise choice long term.

If it had to be one of the majors I personally would go Otis or TKE just based on reliability experience.

#18931 - 12/12/16 04:14 PM Re: MRL preference [Re: ABE]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 662
danzeitz Offline
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danzeitz  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 662
st.louis mo
Agree with ABE!

#18933 - 12/12/16 08:34 PM Re: MRL preference [Re: danzeitz]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 87
Jim Offline
journeyman
Jim  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 87
Get the vendors to supply an itemized price list for the replacement parts for the installation. The owner will quickly realize how much cheaper the cost of ownership over the lifetime of the machine is with a non proprietary elevator package if they choose to change maintaining contractors from oem. Non proprietary elevator systems give the owner much more control over their machinery. They can choose the contractor that provides them with the best and most cost effective service.

#18938 - 12/14/16 12:54 PM Re: MRL preference [Re: Jim]  
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 141
Boa Offline
member
Boa  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 141
NC
Thanks all, these opinions back up my thoughts. It's amazing how much you can learn just following some of the posts on this page.

#18958 - 12/16/16 06:54 PM Re: MRL preference [Re: Boa]  
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3
bud7291 Offline
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bud7291  Offline
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3
Be careful about the Schindler 3300. I admittedly don't intimately know the product, but it is my understanding that most of their own mechanics are not able to work on them unless they have gone through training. Due to a settlement with Otis over the belt technology they are unable to monitor the belts remotely which requires they be replaced after a specific amount of runs.

As for non-proprietary - I don't see the benefit. In the new installation market you are talking about a $100,000 upcharge for an MCE package over an OEM (total selling price difference). Sure you can say that anyone can maintain it, but you can also pay for 60 years of maintenance through the OEM at that price difference. So where is the true benefit to the owner? Save money in 60 years by dumping all that money now on the product that will become obsolete in 10 years?

#18959 - 12/16/16 08:34 PM Re: MRL preference [Re: bud7291]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 330
ABE Offline
Mechanic
ABE  Offline
Mechanic

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 330
The problem is when no one else can maintain or source parts for a specific elevator the OEM can hold the customer hostage and charge whatever they want for service. I've even a seen some OEM not cover certain propriety items like belts and drives from their full maintenance contracts so they can charge for a repair only they can do. Also depending on the area some of the OEMs provide completely awful service. So if no one else can maintain the equipment the customer could be stuck with horrible service and crazy high prices for the life of the elevator...all of a sudden the extra $$ upfront doesn't seem so bad.

#18961 - 12/16/16 09:37 PM Re: MRL preference [Re: ABE]  
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3
bud7291 Offline
stranger
bud7291  Offline
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Posts: 3
So wouldn't the suggestion become to negotiate a long term agreement at a set rate so that the owner gets a secured low price on the equipment and on the maintenance? I don't disagree that an owner should be careful to not go down a path that would give them a poor future, but there are other ways than ignoring the cost effective OEMs. You can always contract with a company to mitigate the future risk. You can guarantee that service tools will be available for purchase if you don't like their service, set the maintenance price at the time of elevator purchase, guarantee that all parts are available for resale, and so on.

I don't hear people complain as much when I have to go to MCE every time a slight modification needs to be done. At that point they can charge me whatever they want the same way an OEM can. No matter what you do you are locked in with a vendor. If it isn't KONE/Otis/TKE/Schindler it is MCE/VMI/SmartRise/EC. There is always someone you MUST go to if certain things happen on the equipment regardless of if you classify them as OEM. If we are telling our customers any differently we are misleading them.

#18969 - 12/17/16 06:34 PM Re: MRL preference [Re: bud7291]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 330
ABE Offline
Mechanic
ABE  Offline
Mechanic

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 330
You can certainly negotiate a long term service contract prior to installation, but what if the company doesn't live up to their promises? what if the response time and and communication from the OEM is terrible? When your married to an OEM's equipment it doesn't leave much recourse. Now I will say most of the big guys do have competitor engineering departments that develop tools and manuals to work on competitors equipment, but that still does limit a owner to a hand full of companies other than the OEM for service and if it is newer equipment it could be years before anyone develops 3rd party support.

The controller modification can be an issue but its been my experience that the cost of the non proprietary modifications is no where close to the cost from an OEM. If you need software almost all the major OEMs will require one of their mechanics come out to load the software which they of course will charge a good amount for. You won't have that issue with MCE,Smartrise,Virginia controls,GAL ,etc.

Also lets not forget the proprietary mechanical items like belts, machines and special sheaves. The OEMs might sell them but at 10 times the cost of standard parts.


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