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#33359 - 07/07/22 02:46 PM Smartrise VS Virginia : Hydro controller  
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 20
Alto101 Offline
stranger
Alto101  Offline
stranger

Joined: May 2022
Posts: 20
Central Florida
Lets start with equipment: The lift and power unit will be Canton Cantilever roped hydro, 3 stop, 150fpm, 3 phase. In a residence with a custom birdcage cab (Biltmore Estate replica) and residential hall doors (custom).
Commercial equipment to meet the clients speed requirements.40-70 fpm was unacceptable.
Fixtures will be CJ Anderson vintage style possibly with hall dial indicators, cab will have Porta gate operator for accordion gate, Standard residential locks 2 wire.
Basically a hybrid of residential and commercial. This may or may not have a cartop inspection station. The finished product is very cosmetic

Controller equipment is about to be ordered. Whats your vote/ input?
1. Smartrise V2 hydro controller
2. Virginia controls MH 3000

The old school guys will go for VC all day. Its all hardwired and simply works. My only reasoning against this is the more hatch wiring components and larger selector and Tape w/ magnets.

Smartrise is the way I'm leaning. Simply as I stated above; hatching wiring is minimal, selector more discreet, only 2 boards(easy to keep a spare on hand).


The better the effort, the better the result.

#33362 - 07/08/22 12:58 AM Re: Smartrise VS Virginia : Hydro controller [Re: Alto101]  
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 133
EElevator Offline
member
EElevator  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 133
It depends... do you want top notch simplicity and reliability? Go with Virginia mh3000.

The only benefit to smartrise is the ease of installation. If you don't have mechanics that know how to wire simple things like pushbuttons this is a benefit. With va controls you don't keep boards on hand, you won't need them. Smartrise is another story... theres three boards on a v2 smartrise and tons of delicate expensive parts. I vote va controls all day long.

Your bigger concern is the canton package cantilevered roped hydro. Every one of those we installed was poorly designed with regards to the releasing carrier on the car. It was a two way spring contraption that if the car bounced at all or someone jumped in it, it would throw the SOS switch and cause an entrapment. Hopefully they've refined their design some. It was hard to adjust the valves because if I adjusted for a moderate slowdown and 1-2 seconds of leveling we were having issues with the safeties due to the releasing carrier again. I had to adjust the valves for a long slow transition, acceleration and deceleration. Hopefully yall won't have the same issue, it sounds like your customer is looking for fast. Especially since you said this car has a Porta Gate operator? Why doesn't it have a movfr operator with real doors? I'm real concerned this cars going to be too light (bouncy).

We had one canton three stop cantilevered car in a residence, it had 8' tall munce two speed side slide doors. Crazy to me to spend that much money and get the kiddy version car gate..

I also must note, whoever thought it was a good idea to put a jawless governor in the pit, no tail sheave the weight of the governor/springs is the only tension and no solenoids to remotely trip/reset the governor. I really hope they've done something differently there too.

#33365 - 07/08/22 07:20 PM Re: Smartrise VS Virginia : Hydro controller [Re: Alto101]  
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 29
JJR Offline
newbie
JJR  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 29
Instead of SmartRise, I would suggest this controller. It's very similar to SmartRise, but works better and has better tech support. https://www.alphaelevatorcontrol.com/Lykos%20Brochure.pdf

#33368 - 07/08/22 09:00 PM Re: Smartrise VS Virginia : Hydro controller [Re: Alto101]  
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 20
Alto101 Offline
stranger
Alto101  Offline
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Joined: May 2022
Posts: 20
Central Florida
EElevator, Please don't scare me. This will be my first "Canton" cantilever. I have installed a few Savaria MRL traction cantilever type units. Worked on a few Roped cantilever LULAs and residential
This job was limited on options for equipment. Canton is a company I had experience with ( twin post) and this is what they suggested to meet my criteria.
KIS100 is the only operator that will conceal and operate the scissor gate. The cab allowance is 1000# and im calculating 650# for the birdcage. Thinking to add weight behind the lower wainscot, or under the platform.

Seems no fans for the smart rise. My local mentor is all Smartrise. Canton mentor "cobra" says Virginia all day.
Ive installed both. When that virginia is wired up good it works damn good. I like their tech support.
Smartrise havn't really had many issues either. Support was a little dry but some support techs were great. Had a bad smartrise board upon arrival of a new unit, but it was swapped out fast.


The better the effort, the better the result.

#33369 - 07/09/22 03:25 AM Re: Smartrise VS Virginia : Hydro controller [Re: Alto101]  
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 38
liftronic Offline
LA Elevator
liftronic  Offline
LA Elevator

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 38
US
I totally agree with EElevator. Don't make the mistake of installing Smartrise just for less wiring. It would cost you the following:
1- Terrible technical support. Smartrise does not have any knowledgeable technical support person at this time. You will have at least 4 hours of waiting time to speak with someone who has no idea what an elevator is!
2- There are concerns about the safety of their controllers. I am not sure about their hydraulic controllers, but their traction controllers compromise on safety for ease of wiring! There are major concerns in their brake circuits.
3- The quality and reliability of their electronic boards is terrible, and you will have to replace them so often. For this reason they recently announced a 5 year warranty, but I am not sure if they'll be in business next year.

My vote is Virginia controls if I want reliability and safety.
If you want something similar to Smartrise but higher quality, like JJR said, I would go with the Alpha control.

#33370 - 07/09/22 04:03 PM Re: Smartrise VS Virginia : Hydro controller [Re: Alto101]  
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 133
EElevator Offline
member
EElevator  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 133
Seems like it's going to be a really cool elevator when it's done. With the vintage style cab and all.

I don't want to scare you by any means, just what I've had happen in the past. The cars we had issues with were single jack cantilevered roped hydro cantons. And the root of the problems on those wasnt necessarily the roped/cantilevered design but the releasing carrier being a nightmare. It's been 8 years or so since we put a couple of those in, I'm hopeful they've had enough feedback to tweak the design there.

The governor though is just a huge PITA to test. Horrible location to put a non remote tripping governor in the pit. Want to guess what else is in pits too? Water. If there was an option on the order form to get that out of the pit, I'd select it.

I absolutely love canton. I think they are some of the best equipment on the market. Real elevators built with thick steel like the good old days, not these rattling tin cans that are becoming the norm.


That being said va controls has been doing this for many decades. Ive put in many many hydros with mh300 controllers. 99%+ have never had one control related issue ever. I'm in service only now and am seeing some mh3000s after they are 20-30 years old need the relays on the I/O board for the valve coils replaced. That's real good compared to my smartrise cars I take care of. I have two installed in 2017 v2 controllers that have needed multiple SRU boards each, door lock boards, handfuls of smartrises expensive force guided SF1 and SF2 relays. Those two are in a group of 2. Across the hall is two old Westinghouse tractions modded 10 years ago with MCE iBox's and the iboxs have Maybe 10-20% as many callbacks as the smartrises do.

#33371 - 07/09/22 04:06 PM Re: Smartrise VS Virginia : Hydro controller [Re: Alto101]  
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 133
EElevator Offline
member
EElevator  Offline
member

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 133
I'm very interested to see this alpha controller. Probably won't happen for awhile though. Smartrise is in bed with Alliance elevator (what my company puts in now). You can't buy an Alliance package with any other controller. They will ONLY sell it with a smartrise.

#33372 - 07/09/22 06:06 PM Re: Smartrise VS Virginia : Hydro controller [Re: EElevator]  
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 20
Alto101 Offline
stranger
Alto101  Offline
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Central Florida
Funny you say that about Alliance, that was my most recent Smartrise install with the bad board upon arrival. I was subbed out for that job so I never saw ordering process. Also that was my first alliance install, my only gripe with that unit is there was several threads on the sling that had to be re-tapped because it was full of weld splatter and the bolts were cross threading. PITA when your rockn and have to stop and rethread. Also the pit template was not accurate and had to be cut onsite to match BBG& DBG. The jack followers are a good design.

My Canton plans originally call for OSG in the over head (remote- trip governor) but I recently requested for it to be in the pit. There will be no access door or car top station. The cartop is open sloped fencing design with a pendant at the peak.
It would be tricky and unsafe to sit on top.

My gut was saying Virginia originally but then I was leaning Smartrise. "Cobra" has installed hundreds and said they don't have issues. He says Virginia for hydro and Motion for traction and that the end of the story.

Most likely MH3000 it will be. Alpha I have never seen or heard of, but that's not saying much. Certainly resembles a Smartrise but presents some nice features from the brochure JJR posted.


The better the effort, the better the result.

#33373 - 07/09/22 06:40 PM Re: Smartrise VS Virginia : Hydro controller [Re: Alto101]  
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 29
JJR Offline
newbie
JJR  Offline
newbie

Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 29
Don't forget about Vision 2.0. It's the successor to MH3000. Whatever you do, don't settle for any of that PLC stuff. Too much like a relay system and too much wiring, and parts become obsolete fast. The only exception is JRT.

#33374 - 07/09/22 06:41 PM Re: Smartrise VS Virginia : Hydro controller [Re: Alto101]  
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Posts: 29
JJR Offline
newbie
JJR  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 29
You could also consider MCE Motion 2000. It's pretty good.

#33376 - 07/10/22 05:21 AM Re: Smartrise VS Virginia : Hydro controller [Re: Alto101]  
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 133
EElevator Offline
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EElevator  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 133
Well in that case a pit governor makes sense for sure. Could they do remote trip soldnoids like on an ecospace? My biggest pain with a pit mount is the ones I have are them jawless governors and they have no trip solenoid. Huge PITA to test. I refuse to put a man under the car in harms way. And I do not want to trip it by overspeeding the car on an annual test, only on a 5 year.

Isn't the vision 2.0 a serial link controller? The mh3000 is microprocessor based but not serial link, all devices are discrete and hardwired. I dont feel that's a successor to the mh3000, it's a different type of controller for different market demands. It's removing all the serial link bs and giving you crazy good reliability of a microprocessor. Some companies prefer that over the quicker install of a serial link type controller. I applaud VA for recognizing theres still a demand and continuing to offer the mh3000 while also offering other options too.

The mce 2000 is a good controller too. They have proven to be good reliable controllers. Similar to mces hmc1000 but alot was updated and there's an event log to help troubleshoot intermittent issues.

I would second Cobras advice. Va controls is great in this situation, but I would want mce iboxs if it's a traction. I have a bunch of gearless torin machines with mce iboxs. I don't think it can get better.

#33382 - 07/12/22 05:03 PM Re: Smartrise VS Virginia : Hydro controller [Re: Alto101]  
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 48
ashley Offline
newbie
ashley  Offline
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Posts: 48
No way you will get a decent ride out of a Canton Roped hydro with the package you are doing. As others have mentioned way to light and you will have to much bounce. You may need to add weight in the sling/platform. I would look at a Bucher hydraulic valve (must purchase thru Schumacher) it will help with the lightweight bounciness. But I'd really recommend a deeper pit with a set of twin ram telescopic jacks. It will be a better ride and a simpler system for reliability.

Have you talked to your inspector about this application? At 150FPM, you will not be allowed to permit it as a residential unit, it will need to be permitted as a commercial unit in a residential setting. The birdcage design is a problem with commercial applications and most likely as a residential as well. I don't think you will have a choice but to put in an inspection station, but your local authority may grant you variances, talk to them before you put your foot in your mouth with the customer.

Porta door operators are garbage IMO, give them an AMD or GAL operator. I don't see this elevator being lightly used like Porta operators are built for.

As far as controller, you will have a landing system with all of them but if you go Virgina or VMI you could do magnets on the rails with built type sensors as they don't require the perforated tape. You could do steppers on one side of the rail and DZ/LU/LD on the other side.

#33384 - 07/13/22 01:28 AM Re: Smartrise VS Virginia : Hydro controller [Re: Alto101]  
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 20
Alto101 Offline
stranger
Alto101  Offline
stranger

Joined: May 2022
Posts: 20
Central Florida
The cross head with a telescopic twin post wont work with the cab design. I am super limited for options strictly based around the cab design. The hoistway had a 16" pit spec'd for a LULA but no Equipment companies I contacted would meet the speed requirement. The architect and designer made a big oops thinking he would be fine with 70-80fpm. The contractor has raised the pit and added stairs ( I know, totally defeats the purpose.)

Great point with the inspection, I brought this up to the owner and contractor. I was told not to worry about an inspection and that it will pass CO.($$$$$get it.) My terms and proposal cover that situation. This is a client that can afford a 40k sq.ft. home with features of your wildest imagination. The client is owner of a huge construction company. He knows how to get what he wants and he will pay.

I have installed several KIS-100, I don't see an issue nor have I seen any fail after many years of use. Simple design and it will work with scissor gate perfectly. Additionally it will have to be concealed behind a cosmetic cover. GAL was my first choice but they never got back to me about Scissor gate operators.

Im interested to know more about magnets to the rails. The plan is to put slow down and normal limit on the rail. Then run the ip8300 where ever possible.

let me post a visual so you will understand better.


The better the effort, the better the result.

#33387 - 07/13/22 03:17 AM Re: Smartrise VS Virginia : Hydro controller [Re: Alto101]  
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 20
Alto101 Offline
stranger
Alto101  Offline
stranger

Joined: May 2022
Posts: 20
Central Florida
This is the clients current cab. It will be replicated by the same fabricator. Same hoistway design but additional floor. I tried to push a LULA but no go on speed. Their current unit is 40fpm
Kone, TK wanted the hoistway reconstructed. Criteria options to get the job was 150 fpm equipment and leaving the hoistway dimension besides raising the pit which is not completed yet.

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IMG_2573 1.jpg (38 downloads)

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