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Forums13
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Most Online117 Jan 16th, 2020
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#36422 - 12/18/23 10:55 PM
Re: Smartrise Scuttlebutt
[Re: Montana]
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Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 44
Alex_ELMAN
Miami Elevator
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Miami Elevator
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 44
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Ashley, if you open the full docket and go to the first page, you will find the details. It appears that a person was injured (crushed) due to the unintended movement of an elevator. You can find it on page 6 of the lawsuit here: https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/N...A_v._DELUXE_HOME_BUILDERS_CORP._et_al/1/Regarding your question about what is unsafe about the controller, let me explain. Elevator safety primarily hinges on redundancy. Eliminating redundancies or interpreting the safety code in a way that reduces redundancies to simplify the controller, making it smaller and cheaper, is problematic. Consider why manufacturers like MCE, GAL, Virginia Control, EC, OTIS, etc., have much larger controllers with numerous contactors, relays, wires, and boards, whereas Smartrise uses a single small board for everything. It's not that Smartrise designers are smarter than other controller manufacturers; rather, they may be bypassing safety code to make their controller compact and affordable. For instance, the code requires certain safety signals to be transmitted through hardware, not software. However, Smartrise controllers transmit many safety signals via communication networks, which are software-based, but they say because we use a specific type of processing unit it will not be considered software while it is still software. I searched smartrise in this forum and found numerous comments where people report unsafe behavior of these controllers. Here are some references for you: http://www.vatortrader.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=35782&Searchpage=1&Main=6353&Words=%2Bsmartrise&Search=true#Post35782 http://www.vatortrader.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=34850&Searchpage=2&Main=6121&Words=%2Bsmartrise&Search=true#Post34850 http://www.vatortrader.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=32451&Searchpage=3&Main=5617&Words=%2Bsmartrise&Search=true#Post32451 http://www.vatortrader.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=32176&Searchpage=4&Main=5556&Words=%2Bsmartrise&Search=true#Post32176 http://www.vatortrader.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=32144&Searchpage=4&Main=5414&Words=%2Bsmartrise&Search=true#Post32144
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#36424 - 12/19/23 03:41 PM
Re: Smartrise Scuttlebutt
[Re: EElevator]
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 97
ashley
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 97
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EElevator: That is actually a problem with our industry, not making money on construction, it always had been that way. That's why we don't bother with it. Most companies do it to get the units on service after the install. The big boys make it impossible to make money on the install, all they care about is getting their proprietary equipment in the door.
I have to disagree with you on why companies buy Smartrise over MCE, in our case it is for the following reasons: 1) Faster to install as there is less wiring 2) Hall fixtures, COP, Landing System, and cart top box is all pre-wired, thus saving field time 3) At the beginning, it was just two boards and some relays, easy to keep spare parts on hand 4) smaller travel cable is less money 5) at the beginning, faster tech support time. And for us, MCE burnt their bridge with us and forced us to look at other companies due to their product issues coming right out of the factory in the late 90s, I really miss their old controller , the ones that you never needed to call them for support to get it running. We are installing our first Alpa Traction controller next month, I won't be working on that job, but will stop in to see it once it's uncrated. Their hydro reminds me of the old Smartrise, we have a few and all problem free installs and running well.
Alex_Elman: Thanks for your explanation , I never really thought of that aspect, as we have not had any issues, except when we go on a new job and find the last contractor turned off releveling or brake monitoring etc. I get your stance on the redundancy issue with the software, but if they truly don't comply, do you not think someone at UL/CSA or a AHJ would have called them out on it by now? of course that reminds me of the dmc controller.tank set up. I complained about the motor leads not being in conduit between the tank and controller, was told by the State it was ok, well until we did it on a job site, with a MEI tank and controller, then it was a violation.
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#36426 - 12/19/23 06:26 PM
Re: Smartrise Scuttlebutt
[Re: Montana]
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Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 44
Alex_ELMAN
Miami Elevator
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Miami Elevator
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 44
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Ashley, I'm glad to hear that you haven't encountered any issues so far, and I hope you never do. As elevator experts, our primary goal is to prevent injuries and technical problems. However, when such incidents occur, they can lead to frustrating and challenging situations, including lawsuits. The critical question in these scenarios often is, 'Could this have been prevented?' Whether the answer is 'yes' or 'no,' it usually indicates a significant problem. The choice to use an inexpensive, easy-to-install controller with fewer travel cables might have seemed advantageous initially. However, the question arises: is it worth compromising safety and facing potential legal repercussions? To address your point about UL/CSA, TSSA, and other organizations, it's important to note that they are private certification bodies, not government authorities. They offer standards and certifications necessary for legal sale, but whether products truly comply with codes can be debatable. Elevator codes can often be vague and subject to varied interpretations, which can lead to compliance issues if misunderstood. It's crucial to have a deep understanding of these codes to implement them correctly. I have experience working with MCE controllers, and although I am no longer affiliated with them, I can attest to their rigorous approach to code compliance. They strive to interpret and apply codes accurately and even publish documents to aid others in understanding these standards correctly. On the other hand, I've heard that Smartrise has outsourced their design and engineering to a foreign company, possibly to Lebanon, which I really doubt they have good knowledge of US safety and code regulations. Below is an article that provides insight into how MCE addresses code compliance and assists in its correct interpretation: https://acim.nidec.com/elevators/-/...ollers-and-common-misunderstandings.ashxAgain I am not affiliate with MCE, I just mentioned them because of my own experience.
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