This is an excerpt from elevator constructor monthly, what do you think?

Local 12 Kansas city Missouri.

Commentary: Websites

From a two stop hydro to the tallest high-rise, I carry a card that says I can fix it, but sometimes I could use a little help. Who do you talk to when the equipment is older than dirt, and the last guy to shoot trouble on it retired two years back? Or maybe the latest and greatest equipment that company X put out the door is down and their tech boys are not about to help you make their equipment run. It would be great to call on a brother and get some advice or a new direction on how to fix it. I had thought that this would have been a natural for our union but alas, the liability for NEIEP to do this is to great. There are to many lawyers in in the world and local 12 has learned just how much lawyers cost.

I have found several elevator Internet sites where they welcome elevator personnel , also building maintenance men, building managers, contractors, and owners. It is a great idea and one we really need in our industry but it should be restricted to IUEC members where where ony members could access it. Is anyone else worried about who is reading these forums? Why hire a union consructor if this type of experience and knowledge is readily available to anyone who comes looking, including non union and bilding maintenance men? I have read some of these forums. Those who have posted are well informed and most likely union members providing the critical information. They are well intentioned but definitely not helping the industry. I would recommend that none of our members provide information to any of these types of sites.

However, if any of these websites change their format to provide a secure union meber only forum online, then I would be the first to recommend it. Providing a forum or site where ONLY union elevator constrictors could enter to discuss with other union members specific questions, problems and solutions,and share their knowledge would be a natural progression of our industry into the future. Verifying union membership though may be a problem. Who would have a list of active members from month to month? So I guess what I am saying is if it is not a union site, then don't supply any information. It is a shame our union could not be the one to provide and control it for us but I understand.... To many lawyers.

Opposing views are good. Email me. Jim linn. Journal@IUEC12.com

That was the article in this months elevator constructor. As I am one of the members with the most posts to this forum, I was wondering your thoughts on the subject. I personally do not think we are harming the elevator industry. It is hard enough for a trained IUEC elevator mechanic to fix most of the equipment out there. Does Jim really think that there is a copious amount of building managers, maintenance men etc. , surfing the web trying to find a way to fix there broken elevator? To tell the truth, there are only a few elevator guys that go the extra distance to better themselves by searching for such forums as this one. I know this because look at the membership numbers for this forum, they are still low and it jas been open for nearly 2 years. I realize that ther could be a liability issue here, but how long should we walk on eggshells to appease the overwhelming number of frivolous lawsuits that our industry has to indure. What do you think?

I started in the trade when I was 19 tears old drilling holes for hydraulic elevators. It's now been 30 years. I'm now a service tech running an out of town route. If your question is "Who do you talk to when the equipment is older than dirt, and the last guy to shoot trouble on it retired two years back?" then I'd be glad to help, but if you are that stuck on your union, then ask your local B.A.

Scott,
I want a website like this. It is needed and it is time. If not you then someone else will.

I am a member of this site, but the original intent of my article was to get NEIEP to create a website so members could access it and know that only other union constructors would be reading. Yes, I am concerned about non-union and others accessing information it has taken years of training to accumulate. The IUEC has spent years building an education program that gives each of us a marketable skill and I do not want to educate the non-union people to compete against me. Why would they ever consider joining the IUEC if they can find a fix whenever they are stumped? For over a hundred years IUEC constructors have been paying dues (money, blood, sweat, and tears) to gain the information this site would freely dispense to all. The NEIEP website already has security measures in place and I thought it would be a natural but they felt otherwise.

The other issue is internet is still in its infancy and the more it is used the more people will seek out information, so again yes in time there will be some owners, bldg maintenance, whoever that will log in and attempt something that without training will get them or someone else hurt. As others read this journal article, I would guess there will be many more union elevator constructors checking out this site. I know when someone finds a good thing the guys I work with can’t wait to tell the next guy where to check it out.

You have the opportunity, dare I say, the responsibility to do it right. Safeguards could be put into place to protect trade secrets. Possibly a tiered system, where the top tier would be Union craftsmen and a second tier for all others, that could answer the basic questions, direct them to a qualified company or in the case of non-union they could be directed to their closest local. Checking out the initial membership would be burdensome but I feel it would be worth it to protect our trade. I would like to contribute to that kind of system.

By the way thanks for reading my original article, it’s nice to know someone is.
Thanks,
Jim

Funny, I was always told by my union to be polite and friendly to all the non-union brothers and sisters. Show them how lucky they could be to join our organization. The training,work rules and commitment to doing a job well done! Remember! Our non-union family is doing the same work we Union guys do, just for less of the pie! I've seen some pretty sharpe non-union mechanics and some pretty flaky union ones too! Bottom line, You touch it you own it...better know what your doing!

The open discussion forum encourages productive thought and forward thinking. Just like automotive forums, computer forums, and the sort it's users understand the circumstances of the information received. The use of information is at the discretion of the user.

In terms of the 'controlling' of who receives the information seems to carry that typical pro-union mindset. I have no problem offering my experience to either side of the industry. The beauty behind our country is free enterprise. I'm not promoting undercutting the employee but to continue evolving the industry and leading it into the future.

Hey Jim, I kind of thought that maybe you were a member of this site, as the other related sites I have visited do not really help you with specific elevator problems. I had a strange feeling you were speaking directly to me while I was reading your article. It seemed as you were reprimanding me for helping our brothers, and it kind of irritated me at the time. I spoke to the administrator about this post, and we discussed the situation of non elevator personnel accessing the information we divulge. He made a good point when he said that you can kind of tell which guys are not elevator people, and most of there questions go unanswered or they are directed to obtain help from a qualified co. I guess I took it for granted that the information I was posting would help only our brothers, for I believed that they would be the onlyones to understand the answers. But I can see your point, that some people may use this same info and hurt themselves or others. I agree that NEIEP should have a forum like this or something similar to help our members. It can be done! I am sure that every elevator man out there would agree that the controllers are changing so rapidly that it makes it almost impossible to be proficient on all of them, just when you finally learn about one controller, which is not necessarily easy in the first place, they introduce something new and exciting. It is akin to the ever changing operating systems for computers these days. The elevator education program is a good beginning, but I believe it is lacking when it comes to actually fixing a broken car on the field. I have seen to many mechanics, new and old who are basically lost when it comes to understanding how an elevator works and using that understanding to get a car running. Jim, you are right, the time for a forum like this is upon us. It can only make our brothers better mechanics, as I truly believe that this is what this forum is trying to accomplish. How about some input from all who read this as to how we can make this a secure, elevator man only, information base. If Otis can have Otis role, and supply over the phone support for all types of equipment, only to Otis employees, then maybe something similar could be done here. I would love to be involved in such a thing, as I truly love being an elevator man and sharing my many years of experience and knowledge to anyone who asks.

What do you all think

i agree that there should be a forum in cyberspace where we can all come together and discuss the topics of our trade. i disagree that it should only be IUEC members. non-union techs, building managers, consultants, inspectors and the general public should be able to share their ideas. it shows that we can be an inclusive industry that takes all sides of a topic. this in turn makes all of us more valuable.

we all want to protect our work, just like any other trade. i feel the same as the administrator, you can tell by the question how much expertise the poster has. and the answers given are appropriate. none of us can know it all, and the only way to learn in most situations is to ask.

being a good union member is someone who puts other brothers above the companies or his own ego. that is how we grow our ranks.

Although i understand both sides of this debate i still feel that non union mechanics are not the enemy. Hell a lot of us started in the trade that way before making the leap to the iuec for bigger and better things. So, just because someone isnt union does not mean that they have nothing to offer to a site like this. As far as helping out each other we should remember all the big companies that have tech support people for their equip use nearly all non union people to support the iuec techs. We never seem to raise hell about that.

As far as a Union only site why not? Any club or group can get together and share amoung themselfs.As with the article that was reprinted here it was from a union only publication. But in a open forum it is just that open. And to exclude anyone would then end the idea of an open forum. I agree with others that to share our knowledge with the untrained is dangerous and myself will not respond to questions that come from someone so untrained they dont speak our language.

The dissemination of technical elevator repair information to untrained individuals searching for ways to save their organization some dough is doing the entire industry a disservice.

These type individuals - usually building maintenance personel - have sought out techincal elevator information in the field for years and the internet is simply another avenue for them. Just last month in my service area a millwright (in this case millwrong) who thought he knew what he was doing got himself killed under a falling material lift.

Having a "elevator mechanic only" section in this or similiar industry website, protected by password, is a good idea and I am sure feasible if someone was willing to put in the effort.

Look at the thread "Hydraulic Elevator Floor Misalign" directly below this one for a perfect example of an indvidual with obvious little elevator repair experience looking for a fix. Someone could easily steer him wrong intentionally or unintentionally, and tell him to make a valve adjustment that could send his elevator crashing into the pit with himself or the riding public in it.

In that thread, experienced guys disseminated technical information to him and/or took his questions as a platform to go off topic or for insider stories - thats all well and good but the OP - "Sirnobody" stopped responding to the thread long ago -mid flight - hope he's not hurt!!

http://www.vatortrader.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1184#Post1184

I’d like to thank Scott for starting this thread. When I wrote that article I wanted to generate discussion but I had no idea it would be carried out here, yet this is probably the best place to discuss it. The idea of this discussion, as I understand it, is to decide if the information should be available to all, reserved to professionals, or reserved to just IUEC members. You already know that I am pro-Union, but to move the discussion along, a line added to the profile showing if you’re an IUEC member might help to know who’s asking the question. However, even if you don’t answer a specific question, nothing stops a novice from reading the other post or every other tidbit of information out there for the harvesting. If the administrator feels we are able to tell which post are from elevator people and which ones are not then is he suggesting we should restrict what we say and to whom? I get the impression that perhaps he agrees that some information should be kept private. All it would take is to have the technical form for members only (in my opinion, IUEC) and have a general form open to non members.
I am not anti non-union, some of my Locals best mechanics and strongest Union men have come from non-union shops. I want to give them every incentive to join with us, into a Union, be polite and friendly sure but I am not going to provide the tools to compete with me or my brothers. The automotive and computer forums makes my point, when I have a problem with one of my vehicles or computers, I Google it to see if I can fix it for less. Is this what is going to happen with elevator repair?
I don’t believe non union mechanics are the enemy but they can eliminate your job given half a chance and having a higher tier for the IUEC mechanics would be another incentive to make the jump to Union and be able to access that higher tier. I worked for the majors for over 20 years mostly in service. The past 5 years I’ve been working for two of my friends, IUEC members that started their own Union elevator company and kept it Union. If it wasn’t for other mechanics having taught me I wouldn’t have any elevator knowledge at all. I like giving back to other mechanics whenever possible and yes I like to share ideas and information with non-union techs, building managers, consultants, inspectors and the general public but not technical and definitely not “how to” information. This website should not become the “doityourself” website.
Does anyone out there have any expertise on ways to setup a multi-tiered website? It would be helpful to have more options available.

I do agree there should be this type of site (actually already exsists at the ElevatorShack forums but to get the info you need to be a VIP member first) BUT what this forum seems to be saying is if you are from outside these stated unions or from another country like myself and a lot of people using the forums, the ONLY people that are able to use this info will be from the unions in the US. Here in Australia Union membership is falling faster than the state government in NSW opinion polls, ie less than 25% mainly because the unions are mostly talk and no action (yes I am a union member shelling out about $10 a week on dues). The law is much different regarding unions etc as it is illegal to actually discriminate between union and non union members, say when applying for a job, there is no such thing anymore of "no ticket, no start".

You just blew me away.
Being the typical American, I didn't think outside the box or consider the internet is global. I too am from an area, Kansas-right to work, where a non-union person gets all the benefits negotiated by the Union and doesn’t have to belong or help pay for it. We even have to furnish legal at the Unions expense if they need it. It’s all designed to weaken Unions like you say they have in Australia. Companies have gone global but Unions haven’t yet and until they do workers around the world will be pitted against each other. Maybe there is a way those professionals outside the US could gain entry to the upper tier, any ideas?

It appears Francis S. Studders has a solution:

"In fact I have gone one step further and have done exactly what Jim has asked for. I have created a seperate forum where access will be given to Union members only. No other members of my forums other than moderators can actually see this forum but, by the same token no future member of the union only forum will see any of my other forums. I would call that fair? I have invited Jim to join his union only forum but sadly I have to say so far only Silence."

Click below for the full monty

http://www.elevatorworld.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=37

..

Just like car forums and the like the user takes a risk. The user has to deem himself capable of the job he's going to undertake. I agree that there are certain liabilities but with the proper disclosure those liabilities are released.

Not to mention it's relatively easy to tell who knows what their talking about vs. Some Joe who feels like he can fix it.

It's a grey area but if it comes down to me I would help union and non-union members alike. It still takes skill and know-how to do a job. Being on a forum and asking questions isn't going to fix everything. But it helps point someone who knows where to look in the right direction.

I went to: http://www.elevatorworld.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=37 and signed up.
I’m awaiting their notification or acceptance of my account, until then I guess I will continue with silence. I noticed that elevatorworld.com printed the whole article too, including my name and email address. As I understand it there are certain courtesies in forums where the author is to be asked before anything is reposted or at a minimum it should not have been posted with my name and email address included. The article was written for an exclusive audience, the I.E.U.C., and therefore from a certain perspective, one that I still believe, but that said I don’t presume to know all the answers and the article is my opinion not that of the IUEC. I welcome the input and having been asked I would have gladly provided the original article, less my personal information. You may have noticed my tag line at the end of the article: “Opposing views are good”.
Different viewpoints are what allows truly allow fair and balanced decisions. That is what needs to happen here. I am not usually very active on forums, too many other irons in the fire, but it looks like I’m square in the middle of this one.
Thanks.
emanofoz

Agreed entirely ^

Eman

Francis S. Studders apparently owns the elevator shack dot com forum over in the UK. His lack of forum etiquette is the main reason for my heads up and quote above.

As a correction to your post #1243 above, elevatorworld dot com did not reprint your Journal article without your permission, Francis S. Studders did.

Sorry to cause you concern here but if it were me, I would rather know about my writings being used by others with their own agendas in mind.

@ doggie

Yes quite right old boy I do own the said forums, but as for lack of forum etiquette "I really do not see what mean sir".

Obviously you have never taken the time to view my forums or you would speak otherwise.

In respect on the said article, one has to live in the free world my friend. "If a person publishes an article in any journal that has potential for public viewing, then the author has to expect that he/she opens their own can of worms as the article is then open for debate".

If you had taken the time to read my comments, i explain clearly that I have no issues with the unions or anyone else. However, I do have issues with censorship of knowledge, knowlegde is learn't and given it is not owned by a union or any other organisation. Mr Linn explains that he is open for debate, again his publication found its way outside of his union & he has to accept that others will debate on his views.
You are all most welcome to debate on my views, that is exactly what forums are for. Forum etiquette does not mean one should not discuss published topics or not use the authors name once he/she has in fact published it.

Because I own a forums similar to these, does not mean I think I am beyond reproach or that I have some kind of elitist attitude. Ask any member on these forums who is also a member of mine, and i believe that you will find that they will say I am neutral and fair & open to abuse from our members LOL.
I will say this though, if you put pen to paper, publish it then expect to get your work debated by any who see it.

"Oh by the way, you should all know that the Elevatorshack is and always has been, hosted in the USA / California & not the UK".

Francis S. Studders.

Yes I AM a member of Elevatorshack and elevator world and elevator trader AND elevator max ...and I think the elevator shack is probably the best administered site...the comments made by people here im my opinion amount to a personal attack on Frank and therefore akin to flaming and SHOULD be dealt with which they would be with Elevatorshack.