My statement and belief that Mr. Studders displayed a lack of etiquette when using Mr. Linn's trade journal article in the manner in which he did on the elevatorworld dot com forum is my opinion -- and I stand by it.

To classify my statement as a "personal attack" and "flaming" is ridiculous.

..

Mr. Studders and I have communicated on web pages and I agree that he is a good egg. I think some times things get lost in translation and I do not think he would ever be malicious to any one for any reason. The same thing goes for Scotty Davidson, who I remember working with over 20 years ago. It would be a blast to see Scotty again and show him the Kinetic Energy calculator I came up with, my personal favorite Time out jumper, the Brugg Rope load equalizer.

With regards to the article written in the Elevator Constructor magazine I found it to be well worded, succinct and a point of view that made me think. To all the aforementioned, I owe a debt of appreciation and gratitude. Scotty, I live in Camarillo CA and will be some where in Orange County possibly monday. If you are willing and able, I would be glad to buy you a cup of coffee and show you my new toys. www.cctc.name
Respectfully Submitted,

Robert L Krieger Jr.

All I can say is WOW, I thought that maybe we would have a few comments here and there regarding the journal article, but who knew the rhetoric would get so heated. Hopefully, this will attract many more people to forums like this. The more mechanics we have the better the knowledge base will be. Hey Robert, I still remember you, I believe you were fixing medical equipment for Kaiser when I first met you. You soon were a helper for Scott Jones at Kaiser Sunset if my old memory serves me right. give me a call when your in town, would love to see you again. 323-816-9023.

doggie.

I respect your right to argue your point but, please define forum etiquette? I have pretty much read just about every rule that there has been published for forums, and so far I have never seen anything that may suggest that I have broken forum etiquette in any shape or form.

Relax about the flamming issues, forums can raise one's opinions to a point where individuals can take offence. This is the problem with the printed word, we cannot see a facail expression so it is easy to lose sight of what was being, attempted to be articulated.

Another point is that I have no agenda of any kind, I do not say my forums are better than all others etc, or that I am anti-union. If I thought this I would never be a member of other forums & would never have so many union friends.

I thank all for the kind words however, I also stand by my statement that if a person publishes an article in any publication, private or not; you have to expect that your article is then open to review and debate by anyone who gets to read the said article. If you do not want or cannot accept negative argument on a published article, then the only answer is "Do not publish your opinions".

I'm not crying over your negative feedback to my comment or my methods. I have only two things that I reserve and they are: - The Right of Free Speech, without personal attack & the right of Freedom.
Now you have my opinions and my thoughts, I would like your opinion as to how or why I have broken forum etiquette?
The administrators of EW I suspect would have deleted my post if, they believed like you that I had broken forum etiquette. Further, any moderator / administrator of vatortrader I suspect would have issued me a warning or deleted my posts if they felt I have broken forum etiquette.
Are you entirely sure that in this instance, your personal relationship with the author has not clouded your judgement? Please do not see this as an offensive comment, i'm just trying to get an understanding of your point of view in respect of forums etiquette & where this is published? or is it purley a personal point of view. Again I respect your right to a personal point of view.

"If I may so that everyone knows exactly the contents of the said article, I have copied it below"

The following has been passed to me, and I just don't see the argument other than eliteist protectionism for union members. Strange really I always though America was the land of the free? It would appear others disagree.

I have found several Internet sites where they
welcome elevator personnel, also building maintenance
men, building managers, contractors, and
owners. It's a great idea and one we really need in our
industry but it should be restricted to only IUEC
members where only union members could access it.
Is anyone else worried about who is reading these
forums? Why hire a union constructor if this type of
experience and knowledge is readily available to anyone
who comes looking, including non-union and
building maintenance men? I've read some of these
forums. Those who have posted are well informed
and most likely union members providing the critical
information. They are well intentioned but definitely
not helping the industry. I would recommend that
none of our members provide information to any of
these types of sites.
However,
if any of these websites change their

format to provide a secure union-member-only
forum online then I would be the first to recommend
it. Providing a forum or site where ONLY union elevator
constructors could enter to discuss with other
union members specific questions, problems and
solutions, and share their knowledge would be a natural
progression of our industry into the future.
Verifying union membership might be a problem
though. Who would have a list of active members
from one month to the next? So I guess what I arn
saying is if it's not a union site then don't supply any
information. It's a shame our union couldn't be the
one to provide and control it for us but I understand
... too many lawyers.
Opposing views are good ... email me!
Jim Linn
Journal@IUEC12.Com

I believe such a view would also mean an end to This forum as well as all other elevator forums if this chap has his way.
However, I for one believe in freedom of speech and Jim has every right to express his views. In fact I have gone one step further and have done exactly what Jim has asked for. I have created a seperate forum where access will be given to Union members only. No other members of my forums other than moderators can actually see this forum but, by the same token no future member of the union only forum will see any of my other forums. I would call that fair?
I have invited Jim to join his union only forum but sadly I have to say so far only Silence.

If Jim has his way then these forums and all others would be for union members only. I have no issues at all with any unions but, you have to have the choice of opting out of them it you feel it is not right for you, without fear of any form of discrimmination.

Regards,

Francis S. Studders

FSS

I do not know you. I do not know Mr. Linn. We share a common bond which is the elevator industry.

In my opinion, this thread started off generally as a thread about sharing trade knowledge via the open internet. It opened with a reprint of Mr. Linn's IUEC trade journal article. A thread concerning the dissemination of technical elevator information to the general public from an IUEC elevator mechanic's point of view.

As an elevator mechanic, I can see and have seen and experienced how putting a little technical or "how to" information in the "wrong" hands can lead to and has led to elevator related accidents.

Once "how to" information is posted on forums such as this one or yours it is in the public realm "forever and for whomever".

In my service area, there is no short supply of building maintenance personnel who would like to be able to pick an elevator door open or "reset" a "stalled" car. I personally see it often enough and have seen these same type people do dangerous things around elevator equipment and get themselves and others hurt.

These types generally make my job more difficult and the elevator equipment I service less secure. As a professional, I strive to make the elevator equipment I routinely service reliable and accident free at reasonable cost. Further, my name and reputation as an elevator mechanic is associated with each car I work on. Lastly, in the Country I live, I have personal liability associated with my work and the equipment I work on.

Now, ask me if I want you and your open forum to provide building maintenance personnel or others with little to no technical elevator experience with "how to" information they think they might be able to use to make repairs to these same elevators, or to unlock these same hoistway doors that I am "responsible" for.

Our concerns may be better focused not on "The Right of Free Speech, without personal attack & the right of Freedom", but on sensible ways of improving ourselves, the equipment we work on and the elevator industry as a whole. I simply do not believe dishing out technical how to elevator information to the general public via open internet forums supports our industry concerns.

Finally, regarding your question regarding etiquette. On elevatorworld dot com you reprinted a trade journal article penned by an elevator industry professional without his permission. You included his name and email address. You held it up in a public forum, pointed at it, and provided your commentary in what I believe to be a mocking manner.

..

Well Doggie

I thank you for your two cents worth. After reading what you have to say I have to wonder why you are a member of these or any other forums as by your own admission you are risk averse in the extreme.
Your analogy does not fit well at all my freind as by the same token, "Would you put a person behind the wheel of a vehicle, when there is a possibility they are a nut and would go on a killing spree (how could you ever know)? or would you let the average Joe have a gun? "Who knows if this guy or gal may just blow a dozen kids heads off"? How can you possibly ever believe that you can protect against any nut, no matter what industry a person is in or level of competence a person may have.
Neither my forums, VatorTrader, ElevatorMax or Elevator-World have ever to my knowledge condoned an action by an individual or an organisation that would put their safety or that of any other person at risk. But I believe you understand this very well and, you revert to using the PC view to hide the fact that you are probably more worried about some non-union or non Otis or whatever guy, gaining the knowledge that may just make the guy or gal a bit more competent than certain people who really do have agenda's would like.

If propriety systems are designed to prevent non company mechanics from gaining access to vital information, to safely repair an elevator or escalator I say this is purley a commercial ploy to retain their market share, there is no other reason for this end off! Forums can help competent mechanics to gain required skills, they can also make others safety aware & yes like everything else in life a nut potentially could take advantage of this. Is this a valid reason to prevent the dissemination of knowledge "Hell NO" it is not. Unless of course you want the entire World to become totally risk averse?

Where Mr Linn's article came from I was not sure at the said time of referring to it on EW forums, this said I would have still published what I had to say in exactly the same way. Mr Linn published his own contact details in his article, I did not look them up and then print them. I also responded to Mr Linn's request for a union members only forum. I created one such forum for him and any other union member who may wish to participate, and I invited Mr Linn to join the said forum but, as I have already stated No response from Mr Linn.

In a World of free speech and free press, I stand by what I have said and what most people believe. If you are publish an article that has the potential to reach public view, then expect your views to be challenged in public or keep your views to yourself if you cannot handel negative feedback.

FSS

You are welcome, here are a few more.

I will not argue your defensive postures in your post #1263 above as it will bring no further value to this thread, and I can even empathize with you on some of them.

If you were to refer to my post #1231 above and read it, and follow the link at the bottom and read that, you could safely extrapolate that I, like many mechanics in the industry, like to share elevator knowledge with other professionals in the industry and related industries.

With regards to elevator technical knowledge including tips, tricks and fixes, my circle of co-workers, including friends and ex co-workers now working for other companies, share information and help each other out whenever the need arises. Helping each other out for us is as natural as breathing. In fact, we relish in the opportunity to help each other out - we keep open score for fun and prizes.

Further, I am all for expanding my circle of friends and reaching out to others in the industry to give and get help and for information exchange. I have posted here previously in these same such ways.

I am simply opposed to slapping "how to fix it" information on the good old WWW for John Q. Public to use or misuse in their own way, especially if John Q. Public intends to use it on systems under my personal care. I also see this as a disservice to the elevator industry as elevators are our bread and butter.

John Q. Public has visited this site and will again, to try to fix his elevator - a complex enough system that I believe is best left for industry professionals. Again, you could follow my post #1231 above for a clear example of same.

If you or other readers do follow that post, keep in mind that search engines enable John Q. to lurk and glean this information without even asking or joining. As I mentioned once before - forever and for whom ever.

Limiting access to "how to fix it" technical elevator information to individuals within the industry is a worthy topic for discussion and we should be able to discuss it in a non-condescending manner.

In my opinion, you obviously believe otherwise.

..

The problem with these arguements is that building managers and home mechanics etc do already try to fix lifts...and will KEEP doing it even though we advise them not too, Possibly due to having to pay for a service call or for their own reasons. It wont matter how the info is hidden by means of passwords and secret sites some of them are just going to do it come hell or high water, and they disregard the local regs by doing it.

doggie

AS I have said, you cannot be totally risk averse. If nutters want to pick up information and then do silly things with that information, they will always find a way to get the said information.

Does this mean we should not discuss technical issues in depth "I think No, but this is just my two cent's worth". I think this thread has run it's course now at least for me as I have said my peace. But, debate is what forums are all about, positive or negative everyone has their own views.

Regards,

Frank

Hey Frank its not only the nutters that use the info...I have some VERY cluey managers who know how to reset lifts ..yes have told them that is defeting the point of having a contract and finding an intermittent problem,,,but seem to be hell bent on doing so and as I said in a previous post that they WILL keep on doing it because it might save them a callout!!

Ha, Nuff said then mate, someone somewhere will always have a play no matter what we do.