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#17731 - 08/13/16 07:09 PM Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes  
Joined: Dec 2015
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Indirtwetrust Offline
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Indirtwetrust  Offline
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Local 18
I had been having problems on a KCM 831 with an MX10 machine that I have since determined are related to traction. Tensioning the ropes and decreasing the accel/decel rates made a huge difference but I think the underlying problem may be the amount of oil on the ropes and sheave.

Does anyone know any tricks or products for improving traction or cleaning ropes in general? I have heard of using Comet but I didn't think it made much difference the one time I tried it. An old timer told me they used to use a beauty product called Fuller Earth to absorb excess oil and grease. But that makes me think a commercial oil soaking product might work better, maybe the powdery type they sell at Home Depot?

What do you think?

#17732 - 08/13/16 09:07 PM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: Indirtwetrust]  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 885
jkh Offline
4 Ever Learning.
jkh  Offline
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Bentonite powder was what we use to use. Make sure what ever you use you clean the ropes and sheave grooves.

Changing the accel and decel rate may serve as a temporary solution. Other things you may look at is the amount of rope that is making contact on the sheave, the rope groove wear and the hoist cable diameter. All I'm sure you have already considered...

Just a suggestion if the ropes were lubricated and it has soaked in, would it make more sense to replace the ropes?


Make good choices,

JKH
#17733 - 08/13/16 09:19 PM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: Indirtwetrust]  
Joined: Feb 2013
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john jay Offline
old hand
john jay  Offline
old hand

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ohio
Fullers Earth and Comet will gum up. I would use a mild cleaner/degreaser and clean up as much of the excess lube as possible. The combination of a light car and counterweight, and over oiling the ropes will definitely cause traction problems. I just Inspected an MX10 that was tearing up the Drive Sheave after they re-roped it. those ropes had a dry hemp core and no lube. These things are a little sensitive, too much either side of perfect and you lose traction, or tear up a sheave.

#17734 - 08/14/16 12:31 AM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: john jay]  
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Indirtwetrust Offline
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Local 18
Re-roping is certainly an option though they're not under sized or that old. I would just like to see if it made any difference to dry up the situation a little bit. It may also be worth while to check the counterweighting. It's a 5000 lb car and it's possible the counterweight is heavy.

#17735 - 08/14/16 05:36 AM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: Indirtwetrust]  
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elmcannic Offline
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elmcannic  Offline
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S. Central Utah
I've been bitten twice in my career by this "over lubricating" using the Nylube type lubricator. Both times I used the Ajax/ Comet route to deal with my troubles. Yes, cleaning the sheave grooves is time consuming, and cleaning machines and car tops are part of the penalty, but it worked. I think it took three sprinklings to finally get it. I did have to modify speed parameters for the short duration, but you have to do what you have to do to overcome the trouble.

Wire brushed the ropes a few months later all has been good.

One concern I have is what, if any, long term effects the bleaching compounds in these products may have on the rope core or the frictional wear of the traction rope itself. I've never heard an answer or theory to the question.

Anyone?

#17736 - 08/14/16 12:41 PM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: elmcannic]  
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 259
beaupeep Offline
Mechanic
beaupeep  Offline
Mechanic

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ontario
Hey dirt, what were your symptoms?

#17737 - 08/14/16 01:16 PM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: beaupeep]  
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Rolly Offline
old hand
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All MX Machines are horrible on traction. You will even see ropes slip on inspection.. Just a horrible traction relation machine. Had one in Ft. Lauderdale that was Underslung (roped 2:1)and would lose traction at an intermediate floor and fault almost every trip. Think I remember this job had special ropes too. Lang Lay I believe. Don't remember if the MX's are all Lang Lay or not. Every Job I went on with MX traction problems all have had different solutions. Changing the Accel/Decel rate was always one solution. Wire brushing the ropes I never tried but could be another logical solution to a junk machine. Liquids and powders never seemed to work.. Double check your counterbalance too, if that is off the problem is much more constant. Even a couple hundred pounds can make a huge difference.

#17738 - 08/14/16 02:31 PM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: Rolly]  
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Indirtwetrust Offline
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Local 18
Ya I have been told several times that they are rarely balanced correctly. In fact, when we get a KCM drive repaired they only warranty it if we check the balancing and go through the brakes. As far as the symptoms, I posted on it about a month ago. My initial concern was the difference in measured speed feedback from the motor vs governor encoder, I never did find out how to correct this.

Thanks all for the input

#17739 - 08/14/16 02:35 PM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: Indirtwetrust]  
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Indirtwetrust Offline
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Local 18

#17740 - 08/14/16 04:39 PM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: Indirtwetrust]  
Joined: Jan 2014
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DripCan Offline
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DripCan  Offline
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I was told Kone want you to use the Draka lube instead of nylube.

#17741 - 08/14/16 05:37 PM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: DripCan]  
Joined: Mar 2016
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lowoil Offline
Elevator guy
lowoil  Offline
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Posts: 190
Wisconsin
Check the drive sheave the first one I ever put in was cut too deep from the factory and had to be replaced,ran fine for a while then started slipping.

#17747 - 08/16/16 06:53 AM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: lowoil]  
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uppo72 Offline
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I have had a similar issue, but didn't have the aid of getting into fault logs and data. We did it the old way, trial and error, and found adding a little car weight seemed to fix it. 3 x 15kg test weights on the car was the fix.

#17748 - 08/16/16 04:40 PM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: uppo72]  
Joined: Mar 2014
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Silly Offline
enthusiast
Silly  Offline
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Depending on location, seismic, or rail settle can also mess with accelerate or deceleration issues. Maybe a quick tram stick to check points on rails. Some of my synergy cars show traction faults from horrible rail jobs.

#17751 - 08/16/16 11:47 PM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: Silly]  
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Indirtwetrust Offline
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Local 18
I don't think weighting down the car is a solution, more like a band-aid.
I had the route mechanic take a closer look at the sheave today. He said the V grooves look like they're rounded. I think this is going to be the problem but I haven't been able to look at another one to make sure this is not normal.

#17753 - 08/17/16 09:09 AM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: Indirtwetrust]  
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uppo72 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Indirtwetrust
I don't think weighting down the car is a solution, more like a band-aid.
I had the route mechanic take a closer look at the sheave today. He said the V grooves look like they're rounded. I think this is going to be the problem but I haven't been able to look at another one to make sure this is not normal.


I agree it was a band aid repair, but we had no info what so ever to help us, so at the time we did what we could.

#17755 - 08/17/16 03:40 PM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: uppo72]  
Joined: Jan 2012
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jkh Offline
4 Ever Learning.
jkh  Offline
4 Ever Learning.

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 885
Definitely a good choice. I still use a set of metal groove gauges from many years ago.


Make good choices,

JKH
#17765 - 08/18/16 11:25 AM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: jkh]  
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danzeitz Offline
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st.louis mo
Top loss of traction cause we have seen....1-overlubracation of hoist ropes. (clean with mineral spirits)...2-car out of balance...3 undersized cables (even when cables pass GO/NoGo)We see a lot of this especially on Northern Machines. Even basement set with 180 degrees of wrap.... 4 Sheave wear (mostly 300fpm or higher Westinghouse machines/some Otis and Haughton. You must replace sheave or machine)....5 Otis with sheave liners ( must be lang lay ropes and must have generous amount of Otis vitalube cable lubricant applied on new ropes.And ONLY this lubricant!!(Yes adding oil to ropes stops loss of traction??? Gave up trying to figure this one out....Good Luck out there!

#24379 - 07/20/18 01:03 PM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: DripCan]  
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 1
RichardL Offline
stranger
RichardL  Offline
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Originally Posted by DripCan
I was told Kone want you to use the Draka lube instead of nylube.


Is this the product: http://partsview.konespares.com/Details?id=71532

#24440 - 07/28/18 01:01 AM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: Indirtwetrust]  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 37
Elevator_Steve Offline
newbie
Elevator_Steve  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 37
Gotta make sure there's no tight spots on the car or cwt rails and lube them both. Tribol is the brand of lubricant they're using on ropes now. Also check balance and always be 1 counterweight on the light side of 50%. Accel/decel will definitely help.

#24480 - 08/04/18 11:44 PM Re: Improving Traction / Cleaning Ropes [Re: Indirtwetrust]  
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 22
Upndwn Offline
Elevator Guy
Upndwn  Offline
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Posts: 22
Add 200 or 300 lbs to the car. There are ballist weights sent with every job. Rarely ever put on though. From talking to the factory and other sources it comes down to the sheave cut being wrong along with total weight on sheave is not enough. You get an empty car rolling in the overhead or changing the accell or decell and car in the pit. The ropes have a steel core and sit on a boat while there coming over. Check the install prints and look for rope compensation weights. That’s how much weight should be added to the car. Technically then to the counter weight. But. New installation has trouble with the brakes holding on new cars because the pads are not fully seated to drum. Any way try the weight. Has fixed many
Of the traction problems. Also get 126 if one of the brakes are dragging. I would check that also . Happy hunting.

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