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#24631 - 08/29/18 02:59 PM Tac 32 Fault 1095 with possible side of Fault 2745  
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 40
Chainring Offline
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Chainring  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 40
Texas


I have a Tac 32 that faults out after running to the third landing (3 stop, twin post telescoping pistons.)

Initial fault list upon finding the unit down (at first floor with door open. This is on an AirForce base and they never even called us, but someone (their civil engineering or fireman) had removed the tank lid, controller cover and turned the in-car stop switch off, apparently trying to diagnose it themselves. Who knows what they did, or whether the initial fault list is partially a result of their actions.)

Fault 1 and following:
12745-SP (a corrupted bottom HWAC CAN message version)
1021 (inspection indicates an invalid I/O or the status of an I/O indicates a combo of active and inactive inputs that are not allowed.)
2710-sp (during machine room inspection, an invalid I/O was detected)
1057 (the encoder is out of tolerance at floor level)
2745-sp (see above)

Reset the faults, unit began viscosity control. Ran it to second floor, then third, unit reversed at third without a DO and returned to first, faulted out.

Fault 1 and following:
1068 (Dual post rack error)
1095 (Dual post rack error- a dynamic sensor failed - check TPDL, TPDR)
2745-Sp (a corrupted bottom HWAC CAN message version)

Reset, allowed viscosity control to completely warm oil and shut off (I’ve had VC roast a tank of oil and the lid was off so I wondered whether base personnel had thought it was overheated) and then ran it to 2nd several tunes to verify that it would, indeed, survive that without problems. It did. Then ran it to 3rd, where it immediately reversed to 1st landing and faulted out again.

Fault 1 and following:

1068 dual post rack error
1095 dual post rack error, dynamic sensor failed, etc

No reappearance of the 2745-SP fault.

So, I took pictures of the dynamic sensor assemblies in the hoist way and headed back to the office, figuring that was what I needed.

However, Vertical Xpress is having trouble finding the part numbers I need for those and the tech dropped the call and hasn’t yet called me back from yesterday. As a result, I’m contemplating what I can be doing on my end and whether there is more to the story, now that I’m 1.5 hours away from the job.

For instance, I didn’t look for the Dynamic Sensors on the print. They serve to verify that the twin post telescoping system is within the acceptable synchronization range. I did verify that both pistons are leak free and appear to be exactly in sync, before and after a “force jack resync” command. I also inspected the sensors in the hoistway and verified that the red LED on the module next to them does react to breaking the “beam” with my hand, and there is no obvious damage.

I’m wondering if there are relays on the controller that are managed by the Dynamic Sensors, and if they might possibly be at fault - a much more plausible condition than faulty fiber optic sensors and modules in the hoist way?

Also, that fault 2745-sp that manifested twice (although not at the last shutdown) concerns me. Could that be related?

Should I go to the trouble to go back over there and see if the sensors go directly to the controller or through a hnb card (fault 2745 may indicate a faulty bottom hnb card that has the access function on it?) Possibly the bad HNB card is causing the supposed Dynamic Sensor fault? Although it seems likely that I’d see more problems than that from a deteriorating HNB card.

If the sensors go to the controller, are there more likely culprits like a relay to replace, etc.?

In your experience, should I go ahead and work at getting the right part numbers from Vertical Xpress and get the fiber optic sensor and modules x 2, and even an HNB card before going back? Or are there other things to check/replace before going that route?

Thanks for your time and expertise!!


2nd generation elevator man.
#24633 - 08/29/18 10:50 PM Re: Tac 32 Fault 1095 with possible side of Fault 2745 [Re: Chainring]  
Joined: Dec 2015
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Indirtwetrust Offline
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Indirtwetrust  Offline
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Local 18
The dynamic sensors go straight back to the IOD, not related to your other faults. Do you have IMS to watch the inputs? TPDL and TPDR should come on virtually simultaneously, 12” before the slowdown at the top floor. I suspect there is nothing wrong other than sensor placement. One common problem with the optical style switches that are interrupted by the piston caps is that one sensor is in to the car too far so after passing the cap, the piston itself will break the beam at or near the floor, this will cause your problem. If the switches aren’t coming on at the same time you will also get these faults but before adjusting that, pull the springs and manually lower the car (manual re-sync) make sure the jacks are bottoming out by making sure the bolster isn’t touching the stands. Only adjust the sensors vertically immediately after a manual resync.

Your other problems are unrelated. With power off, make sure you have 60 ohms on the hall CAN channel, HCL to HCH. If that’s good, you may want to replace that HNB card.

#24634 - 08/29/18 11:44 PM Re: Tac 32 Fault 1095 with possible side of Fault 2745 [Re: Chainring]  
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Chainring Offline
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Chainring  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2016
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Texas
Thanks for your response!!

I do not have IMS, regrettably, and the elevator was installed and has been running ok since 2011ish. Do you still feel like sensor placement might be at fault - is that something that becomes an issue after a few years of normal operation?

Although I didn’t notice any guide liner chunks in the pit, I’ll check the rail guides and make sure it hasn’t eaten a liner and leaned toward a sensor enough to create a problem such as you describe.


2nd generation elevator man.
#24644 - 08/30/18 11:06 PM Re: Tac 32 Fault 1095 with possible side of Fault 2745 [Re: Chainring]  
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Indirtwetrust Offline
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Indirtwetrust  Offline
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Local 18
It sounds like it does it every time so I would expect either the sensor is bad or something has moved. Hook up a meter to the sensor and wave the beam a few times. If they test good with a meter, you need some way of watching both sensors at the same time. I’m not sure if you can see them with the UIT, I have virtually no experience with that. If not, 2 meters or a couple 24v LEDs should suffice.

If it’s he job is that far away then ya, I’d probably get the part before going out there just in case.

#24645 - 08/31/18 01:24 AM Re: Tac 32 Fault 1095 with possible side of Fault 2745 [Re: Chainring]  
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Chainring Offline
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Chainring  Offline
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Texas
Thank you!!


2nd generation elevator man.
#24648 - 08/31/18 11:21 AM Re: Tac 32 Fault 1095 with possible side of Fault 2745 [Re: Chainring]  
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 191
lowoil Offline
Elevator guy
lowoil  Offline
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Wisconsin
I would measure the distance between the flower pots on the pistons to see how far there off,any more than 3 inches or so and id say you have a problem with the jack check valve.with ims you could better diagnose by looking at the sync log and sensors.the 1021 and 2710 is a bad iod inspect slider switch.

#24652 - 08/31/18 08:27 PM Re: Tac 32 Fault 1095 with possible side of Fault 2745 [Re: Chainring]  
Joined: Sep 2016
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Chainring Offline
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Chainring  Offline
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Texas
Went back today and had a helper with me. He watched the input from left and then right sensor as I ran it past the sensors and marked the hoistway wall when they went low and ten high again. Both evidenced synchronised activity and after doing that, it actually ran to top on automatic one time without throwing a fault. Then back to faulting out with every trip to the top.

So we got another meter and watched both sensors (requiring that he press a meter lead against connector plug 14 again to read them) in order that we could see it if one sensor was intermittently failing to register. It ran on automatic without a single fault for 6 or 8 trips. I began to regard that connector 14 with deep suspicion and unplugged it and replugged it multiple times (as well as pressing the wires inward and tugging them to make sure they were connected well. After returning it to automatic, it has run without problems! I guess we had a failure to make within the plug!

Lowoil, I also manipulated the controller inspection switch several times to make sure it was making well, too. Thanks for that tip.

I appreciate everyone’s input!


2nd generation elevator man.
#24949 - 10/10/18 01:33 PM Re: Tac 32 Fault 1095 with possible side of Fault 2745 [Re: lowoil]  
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 38
Philelevman Offline
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Philelevman  Offline
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St Louis Mo
Getting ready to change some piston check valves on a DMC. Have you done this before.


Philelevman
#24979 - 10/13/18 03:29 PM Re: Tac 32 Fault 1095 with possible side of Fault 2745 [Re: Chainring]  
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Chainring Offline
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Chainring  Offline
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Texas
Problem returned. Changed out the connector 14 plug, just in case, still shutting down. Have new dynamic sensors and modules for the hoistway, installing next week. Fingers crossed. 😩


2nd generation elevator man.
#24990 - 10/15/18 10:45 AM Re: Tac 32 Fault 1095 with possible side of Fault 2745 [Re: Chainring]  
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 6
Cowdoodi Offline
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Does it have followers , with the reed switches mounted in the track , or the cups on the pistons ?

#24993 - 10/15/18 04:10 PM Re: Tac 32 Fault 1095 with possible side of Fault 2745 [Re: Chainring]  
Joined: Dec 2017
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Huskervator Offline
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Huskervator  Offline
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Something I've done in sync errors. If the packings are dry. Clean the top foot or do of the pistons. Sand if necessary to get the area where the packings land cleaned and polished. Sometimes you may need to put some oil on the piston to clean it. Pull your springs and manual lower the jack's until they bottom out.
Another thing is every hyro I have, I put a quart of caterpiller 1U931 oil additive in the system. I've stopped sync errors with the "cat juice" itself.
Also see if you are running veggie oil, that will sometimes lose viscosity and get gummy.

#25002 - 10/16/18 03:43 PM Re: Tac 32 Fault 1095 with possible side of Fault 2745 [Re: Cowdoodi]  
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Chainring Offline
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Chainring  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2016
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Texas
Cowdoodi it has the cups on the middle cylinder head.

Installed a new sensor module on the right side yesterday, no change.
Installed the new module on the left side, fixed!!

So, the original fault was accurate, despite the seemingly consistent behavior of the LED on the module, it apparently wasn’t transmitting the signal to the controller.

Quite relieved to see it run without faulting out!

Thanks everyone for your expertise!!

Last edited by Chainring; 10/16/18 03:44 PM.

2nd generation elevator man.
#25007 - 10/16/18 08:37 PM Re: Tac 32 Fault 1095 with possible side of Fault 2745 [Re: Chainring]  
Joined: Oct 2016
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Philelevman Offline
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Philelevman  Offline
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Posts: 38
St Louis Mo
Those inspection switches on the IOD board are known to be a problem as well. I've found several where guys jumped them out to make it run and then never returned to correct the problem so be careful.


Philelevman
#25644 - 01/14/19 05:02 PM Re: Tac 32 Fault 1095 with possible side of Fault 2745 [Re: Chainring]  
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Posts: 40
Chainring Offline
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Chainring  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 40
Texas
Yeah, definitely have a sketchy controller inspection switch on that one, glad to know about that issue.


2nd generation elevator man.
#25649 - 01/14/19 11:20 PM Re: Tac 32 Fault 1095 with possible side of Fault 2745 [Re: Chainring]  
Joined: Dec 2015
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Indirtwetrust Offline
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Indirtwetrust  Offline
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Local 18
I’ve actually had pretty good luck with contact cleaner in those switches. Put a rag around the switch, blast it in with a nozzle and work the switch.

#25678 - 01/16/19 03:14 PM Re: Tac 32 Fault 1095 with possible side of Fault 2745 [Re: Chainring]  
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 40
Chainring Offline
newbie
Chainring  Offline
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Texas
Will definitely try that.


2nd generation elevator man.

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