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#30176 - 11/17/20 02:05 AM EC with KEB F5 Combivert Drive issue  
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 8
Orange Stick Offline
stranger
Orange Stick  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 8
I am having a helluva time with the ride quality on this unit after mod. I have two cars and both have the same issue. I can get it leaving the floor top notch in the down direction adjusting brake pick vs. start delay times, but in the up, there is a lurch/bump like it's pulling out of the brake and then it's seems like the drive is adjusting the demand to the encoder pattern. Also have messed with gain settings both in ride and pretorque. This had a load cell ( Rope mounted) and doesn't seem to affect anything. Even the EC guy didn't know why. Started down the drive gain adjust and still can't get anywhere.

LC02 set to FOC. 49% Gearless balance. Torin TMGL 2 Machine. KEB F5 Combivert Drive. Only a 5 Stop....

If my pick and Pattern Delay times are good in the down, the only thing I can think of is the weight of a 49% balance is pulling it too hard out of the brake (damn disc and caliper brakes) I can hear it rubbing the pads on the way out like a wet finger over glass. I can't seem to get anywhere with synthetic pretorque settings. Anyone smarter than me out there have any ideas or suggestions???

Last edited by Orange Stick; 11/17/20 02:08 AM.
#30182 - 11/17/20 11:19 PM Re: EC with KEB F5 Combivert Drive issue [Re: Orange Stick]  
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 18
VTR Tech Offline
observer
VTR Tech  Offline
observer

Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 18
South Central USA
Hello hello, I'm not familiar with EC traction or Torin machines, but I have spent hours pulling my hair out adjusting a dozen imperial 525 gearless machines with KEB F5 drive and MCE controllers, so maybe I can offer a little insight.

Try a couple easy things first:

- Check encoder mounting. Run the elevator and make sure there is no encoder wobble or otherwise loose mounting.
- Make sure the encoder wire is ran in a separate conduit from the motor wiring.
- Make sure excess encoder wiring is not looped up next to high voltage wiring (I see this a lot in re-mods)
I actually once had a box fan running close to the encoder wiring cause noticeable vibration in the cab while it was running.
- Try to disconnect the loadweigher and run the car.
- See if adding a little weight to the car makes any difference.

Now for the PITA part:

- Make sure you have correct brake spring tension and pick voltage. At least on the imperial machines, too much spring tension can cause the brake to not pick consistently and feel very rough inside the car. Also I tend to have more luck with lower brake pick voltages
- Make sure the brake plunger and sleeve are clean and lubed up (no scoring also) if the Torin machines require it.

Drive:

My only F5 book I have in front of me right now is from 2014, so it's a little old, but most functions should match up.
With Synthetic pretorque you should be able to cleanly pick the brake, and hold the machine long before sending pattern to the motor. It's helpful to initially set brake pick and pattern delay times high with synthetic pretorque and then dial them back to find a good inbetween.
There is a nice write up on synthetic pretorque in section 5.12.4 of the drive book, but I'll summarize below.

- Set LF30 (Control Mode) to 5. This turns on synthesized pretorque
- Set US17 (Pre-Torque timer ramp up) to .2
- Set US18 (Pre-Torque timer ramp down) to .2
- Set brake pick and pattern delay so that the brake picks and you have a solid 1 second or so of the drive holding the machine at zero speed. Run elevator on inspect both directions at the bottom and top of the hoistway. It will probably roll back some, that's ok initially. Take note of the amount of rollback. Increase US17 and or 18 by increments of .2 until little to no rollback occurs. Assuming that helps and the brake picks cleanly before the drive patterns the motor, readjust pick and pattern delay to be less lethargic and you'll probably want to decrease US17 and 18 by a little as well. There are also a couple more drive params - PLF31 and PLF32. I have not had to mess with them though. I think they are used to adjust the strength of the pretorque. You probably won't have to adjust them if your car is balanced.

What is the capacity of the car?
Does it have the R6 Regen unit or is it braking resistors?

If all else fails you could probably give KEB a ring. They are usually pretty helpful with weird drive issues. But it almost sounds like it could just be brake/drive tuning issues. At least my past few experiences bias me in that direction.

#30318 - 12/10/20 01:40 PM Re: EC with KEB F5 Combivert Drive issue [Re: Orange Stick]  
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 117
Turbo6 Offline
member
Turbo6  Offline
member

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 117
Chicago
VTR is on the correct track above. There is always been an issue with torin gearless. Does this car of load weighing? Issue with using the synthetic Pre torque occasional with those motors you may also have to the sensitivity of the encoder. Shoot me a txt 469-649-6551

#30325 - 12/12/20 03:23 AM Re: EC with KEB F5 Combivert Drive issue [Re: Orange Stick]  
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 82
NY Guy Offline
journeyman
NY Guy  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 82
Agree with Turbo. I have had KEB and GAL on site at the same time about this machine. When you use the Synthetic pre torque on the KEB drive setting( synthetic pre torque means you are not using any load weighing device),you are allowing the drive to estimate the amount of torque needed to hold the motor still while the last brake lifts but it needs a run first to calculate this value. This means when it reverses direction KEB resets the pretorque setting to 0 so it can measure that direction which gives you this nasty bump and creaking noise from the brake when it lifts. All rides in the same direction after that first run are good.
These machines MUST have load weighing installed, calibrated, and adjusted while using the normal pretorque setting on the drive to properly pre torque the motor without KEB guessing due to the machine brake design.
There could be an encoder issue only if the tolerances of the encoder are rated high. Garbage encoders give garbage feedback.

Hope this helps.

#30331 - 12/13/20 12:47 AM Re: EC with KEB F5 Combivert Drive issue [Re: Orange Stick]  
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 31
Elev8ted Offline
Gted
Elev8ted  Offline
Gted

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 31
Canada
Double check the true values for your motor data and gear ratio, with Torin, they send 2 data tags. Motor and application. If you change anything after tuning the drive, you must re-tune it.
Make sure that all the LF 31,32,33 are back to the default values, on GAL, the controller handles the patterns.
Is it a G4 as well?
VTR is right, make sure your brake voltage is properly setup and on the controller double check your timing on take off, brake lift.

Let us know if you got it and what it was.

#30528 - 01/28/21 11:48 AM Re: EC with KEB F5 Combivert Drive issue [Re: Orange Stick]  
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 8
Orange Stick Offline
stranger
Orange Stick  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 8
Hello all,

Apologies about the late response. Couldn't log on for quite a while for some reason.

So, finally got the synthetic pretorque to work well in both directions. Took a lot of time inching settings to the correct spot. Ended up being an issue between timing of the control torque and getting the right combination of intergral and proportional gain settings on the pretorque menu in the drive. and....here's the thing. Because this is synthetic pretorque, it tries to predict the load in the car. Every 20-30 runs though, a serious shudder in the car on start of a run would occur as it would try to predict. Completely random and intermittent.

NY Guy is correct. These machines MUST have load weigher installed on the cars. The only reason I went down the synthetic route is even the EC engineer couldn't figure out how to get it working properly. After having enough, I finally got some weights back down there and figured out for myself how to get the load weigher to function properly. With EC and this drive, it's quite a tedious process. Cars run like glass, consistently now!

Thanks everyone

#30532 - 01/29/21 01:52 AM Re: EC with KEB F5 Combivert Drive issue [Re: Orange Stick]  
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 82
NY Guy Offline
journeyman
NY Guy  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 82
Glad it worked out for you!!!
This industry is constantly changing on us!

All the best!

#30567 - 02/07/21 09:44 PM Re: EC with KEB F5 Combivert Drive issue [Re: Orange Stick]  
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 117
Turbo6 Offline
member
Turbo6  Offline
member

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 117
Chicago
Originally Posted by Orange Stick
I am having a helluva time with the ride quality on this unit after mod. I have two cars and both have the same issue. I can get it leaving the floor top notch in the down direction adjusting brake pick vs. start delay times, but in the up, there is a lurch/bump like it's pulling out of the brake and then it's seems like the drive is adjusting the demand to the encoder pattern. Also have messed with gain settings both in ride and pretorque. This had a load cell ( Rope mounted) and doesn't seem to affect anything. Even the EC guy didn't know why. Started down the drive gain adjust and still can't get anywhere.

LC02 set to FOC. 49% Gearless balance. Torin TMGL 2 Machine. KEB F5 Combivert Drive. Only a 5 Stop....

If my pick and Pattern Delay times are good in the down, the only thing I can think of is the weight of a 49% balance is pulling it too hard out of the brake (damn disc and caliper brakes) I can hear it rubbing the pads on the way out like a wet finger over glass. I can't seem to get anywhere with synthetic pretorque settings. Anyone smarter than me out there have any ideas or suggestions???


The occasional shudder while using is interference to the encoder. This is due to the synthetic pre torque being implemented before movement and the encoder picking it up. Where iv had to use I always change the sample rate on encoder.

#30574 - 02/08/21 11:28 PM Re: EC with KEB F5 Combivert Drive issue [Re: Orange Stick]  
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 18
Sammy1 Offline
stranger
Sammy1  Offline
stranger

Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 18
Have you performed the load weight setup from page 265 through 283. There are a lot adjustments based off of load and position. The units that I have setup ( L1000A ) were very smooth after calibration of the load weight and going through pages 265-283. Good luck.


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