Home Forums General Discussion Code Questions Code question about signaling/alarm/communication

I need some assistance understanding ASME 17.1 2010 with regard to signaling/communication requirements.

Otis Traction elector, 5 story building, built in 1929.

An emergency telephone has been installed according to code, which will operate even when power is out.

The elevator also has it's original push-to-sound alarm bell button, which operates on normal power (no battery backup).

So the question is this:

Given that the emergency phone is there, does the alarm bell button need to be hooked up to battery backup?

My reading of the code suggests not, but I need a second opinion.

Here is what Item 1.6 of ASME 17.2-2010 guide says:
"Elevators installed under A17.1-1955 through
A17.1b-1980, which are operated without a designated
attendant, must be provided with an emergency signal
audible outside the hoistway, or with a telephone.."

this seems to be the relevant part of Asme (this is from 2007 i dont know if 2010 changes it):

"5.1.21 Emergency Operations and Signaling Devices
5.1.21.1 Emergency Signal and/or Communications. Each elevator shall be equipped with an alarm
button or switch in the car operating station and an
alarm device mounted in a location that shall be readily
available to a person who is normally situated in the
vicinity when the elevator is in use; or a means of voice
communication to a receiving station always attended
when the installation is in use. If the alarm device or
means of voice communication is normally activated by
utility power supply, it shall be backed up by a manual
or battery operated device. "

My reading is that the alarm bell is not required because we have a phone.

But the unclear part is, if there is a legacy alarm button as well as a new two-way communications phone (that works even when there is no power), does this mean that it's not a violation if the alarm bell button ceases working when the building loses power?

The code depends on where you are. Who it the Authority having Jurisdiction?

May I respectfully suggest that you have both work in case one or the other wont or does not? I just saw a compelling presentation from Kings III communication. Impressive product. Otis now has a interactive voice prompt system, equally as impressive.

Ultimately, the building owner gets to choose between the price of a battery or the price of a negligence cause of action or law suit.

We are in Illinois.

I appreciate the sentiment, but the reality is that putting the alarm button on battery backup means a $3,000 cost.

In an 80 year old traction elevator servicing a 5 story residential building, which already has a fancy emergency phone that isn't dependent on building power, and elevator walls that make it very easy to hear anyone calling out from within elevator, you can imagine why we don't feel that putting the alarm bell on battery power makes much sense if its not required.

i suppose one could think up scenarios where someone who is mute gets stuck and the power fails, and the phone fails, and who is to weak to pound on the doors, could benefit from having the alarm bell on battery backup.. but then if it's not a code requirement you'd still have to ask yourself if maybe the $3,000 might be better spent on some different optional safety device..

another way to look at it is simply that, we'd like to know whether (since we have the phone) the alarm bell being on battery power required by code or not-- if not then we can at least CONSIDER our options. if it is, there is no point in us doing continued research about our options.

http://www.cjanderson.com/el100-xemergencylight-completeunit.aspx

Is a local vendor who supports elevator safety.

Tell the salesman from your service company that you don't mind helping his kids through school, but you don't seem to see a reason to pay for the whole thing. Most importantly, if the equipment you are referring to was part of a previous install or "legacy" it was accepted by the Authority having jurisdiction at the time it was installed and since you have done nothing to cause that system to be upgraded, it would seem that they are misinformed about the requirement to suddenly add a $3,000 battery back up unit. Call for pricing on the above and I think you will be surprised. Ask your salesman to show you where this requirement applies to your installation.

Yet another reason to be skeptical about "confidence men" who talk with the tone and demeanor of a knowledgeable person.

More importantly, are you willing to give such people more of your money? As I recently learned in a seminar, the obvious and beyond obvious question is "What else has this guy (or his company) done?"

Respectfully,

Robert L Krieger Jr.

Illinois adopted new code requirements that elevators must comply with the new ASME standards by January 1st, 2015.

There seems to be universal agreement that we need to perform a set up upgrades to comply with this, even though it's a legacy installation.

It's not really a question of what items to buy or who to buy them from.

What I'm trying to understand is whether the code actually requires us to have the alarm button bell on battery backup if we already have a phone which is independent of the power building power.

With regards to overpaying on elevator maintenance/upgrades, i'm afraid we don't have too many good options -- it isn't like there are 10 different companies in our service area.

Maybe its time for you to pay for the services of a qualified elevator consultant. Frequently, the money you spend with them is saved by multiples in terms of getting what you need and not what the salesman at your service provider wants you to buy. (Keeping in mind that sales poeple get commission on sales.)
The most current version of ASME A17.1 is 2013. Many changes there and I think Illinois is looking for Fire service on elevators, not total compliance with ASME A17.1 2010.

That being the case, give C.J. Anderson a call and see who they might suggest in your area. They have been in business for many decades and have a reputation of being right and honorable people.

Rob, don't you guys have to have an emergency light unit, in which the bell is incorporated? In this both the lights and bell are serviced by the battery back up in this unit?

There are quite a few of the manufactures that make alarm bell/emerg light units, that adapt fairly easily to existing units-EPCO is one.

http://nylube.com/Emergency_Lights___Alarm.html

Just one of the many options that are available.

All this for an 84 year old elevator. Please, you got your moneys worth. Install an alarm bell already.