Home Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Tac 50

5000# @ 200fpm vvvf 5 landings 175' rise We replaced the sheave brake coil due to a shorted coil. The car was above the top floor on the directional limit. IO showed no SAF3, This says the car safety circuit is open. OVL, HS, CS, ICS all high. Power to the SAF3 output module, no power out. Replaced all modules with known good. Still no SAF3. No faults showing. Pulled cpu board and took out program chips and installed into spare cpu (same part no, but earlier version h vs. f). Car came up and SAF# was hot. Tried to run on insp and car reacted violently. Thought that trash in the spare cpu might have caused this, so I put the software back into the original board. Car booted and SAF3 was hot. Ran car on insp from the MR and things seemed normal. Put the car in auto and it started down, but did not stop at the next floor and continued to the bottom. The selector did not advance with the car movement. The car stopped on the bottom dir limit. Rebooted the cpu and the car leveled into the bottom floor and selector showed the first floor. Tried to go to 2 and the car took off and immediately slowed down and stopped after about 14' run. SAF3 went low. Selector showed first floor. Doesn't the governor encoder tell position? Or does the motor encoder? Both show direction and speed, but if I do a VEL, the car and governor show a difference of 20fpm. Any thoughts?

J

I believe you are correct, the governor is position.

J

It sounds like the governor encoder may be bad?

You could be getting noise across the encoder wiring? Try adding a new ground to the governor? Or reset the scaling with the tool...

Do you have logfiles set up? Make sure OSDM (whatever number dpp is) is on and you czn view DPP every 1/2 second or so. You can see what the encoders are feeding

What is OSDM? I don't have it in my book as any adjustment. This TAC50 is about 8 or 10 years old. Anybody got any ideas on the SAF3 problem? TES shows a 1 (Safeties), but all the info I have says that a safety circuit is open when it isn't.

Clean P1 and p2 on your pmi 1 and dsp. Make sure the NDET EDET etc, first four white modules on PM1(They need to be white with the last four digits of the part numbers on top ag4). Initialize ETSI and NTSI then TBSS then cycle power. Run a back up scan manually. Type in TBS. Run car to top then back to the bottom. Then Wrt.

Should fix it right up.

another tip after you clean your p1 and p2 on the DSP and PM1. After power is restored and IMS is communicating. Type is FLTP. It will show all your pmi cars and plugs 1-5. Everything should be a 0 if you have any 1s, then its not making a good connection. Also use stabliant that stuff is great.

I think SAF 3 is turned on by the CPU. Your safety string could be fine but the CPU is in control of SAF 2 and 3 I believe. You have a drive fault and/or some other problem. Is DE high?

I agree on the stabilant, works for me.

Not trying to hijack this thread but I'm curious about say doing an Automatic Hoistway Scan (Learn trip/Floor Height Update etc..). What else needs to be done? NTS and ETS? I usually look at the FCP's, write them down then perform a scan. What would the "proper" procedure be?

Fltp showed all 0's. DE can't go high until saf3 goes high. I can't run setup until I resolve SAF3 problem. I'm thinking that the car CPU may be compromised.

Since the car was running previously to the Sheave brake coil shorting out, I believe that the right modules are in the right places, but, I will change them out with known goods.

I'm also leaning toward the Gov encoder card as being bad. Does anyone remember a command that will give a position for the car between floors? FCP shows all floors and FPR shows the nearest floor, but neither show the exact position.

Speaking of the Sheave Brake Coil, If anyone should encounter a zero ohm short circuit to ground and still having continuity through the coil (approx. 30 ohms) condition, the problem is probably that the coil has vibrated against the end cap of the brake until it shorted. Release all the tension on the brake after measuring the lengths and pull the end cap. Drill a divot where the short occurred and tape over the coil where the connection to the field wires join the coil. This will save you buying a new coil at a cost of $2K+. We bought the coil before taking apart the brake and found that it could have been a simpler fix.

I'd check all of your power supplies.

In addition to these errors below check the pico fuses on the DSP board. Tac-50 is the multibus system and uses 99.9% of T4 Errors.

102 T4 ONLY. Loss of DSP and CPU DPRAM communications. The CPU pulls SAF3 and the DSP pulls SAF1 and SAF2 to shut down the car until communication is re-established.

Check +5V output on DSP

103 T4 ONLY. Incorrect checksum on DPRAM data received from the DSP. The CPU pulls SAF3 until good data is received.

116 T4 ONLY. SAF1/SAF2 cross check error. If either the DSP or the ETSDL system indicate that they have opened the safety string and the CPU reads both SAF1 and SAF2 closed, this error is logged and the CPU opens SAF3. SAF3 is automatically closed if the condition is corrected.

Defective DSP card

Defective PMI #1 card

Loose cards in Multibus rack. Reseat cards.

170 EN-81 ONLY. Door Zone Control Monitor error. The DZCM input
is stuck while at a floor. Safety string is opened VIA SAF3 and a power cycle is required to close the safety string.
(Effective V20R0F)

The DZCM input module is bad.

The DZE1 or DZE2 output module is bad.

PTO or DZC relays bad.

171 EN-81 ONLY. Door Zone Control Monitor Rear error. The DZCM input is stuck while at a floor. Safety
string is opened via SAF3 and a power cycle is required to close the safety string. (Effective V20R0F)

The DZCMR input module is bad.

The DZE1r or DZE2r output module is bad.

PTOR or DZCR relays bad.

s

Car at first landing. Turn the car on inspection. NTSI then ETSI. TBSS and then yes. Cycle power. Then I run back up scan manually using the TBS command. Run car to top then back to the bottom. Then use NTST and NTSB make sure you have good information. Then WRT. That covers you NTSD and ETSD systems. Then a hoistway scan need to be ran to cover you floor positions and checks your directional limits. Going off of memory Ill have to check my notes in my computer bag if im missing any commands or steps.

Ill have to check my logic flow chart to see what the CPU needs for SAF3 cause its controlled by the CPU.

this is a 200 fpm car it might not use vanes for the ETS/L system. It prolly uses switches so I need to look for some information. Also I have only T4's on my route so some of my info may not help.

Job has NTS and ETS toothed cam running thru sensors. DSP voltage 5.2VDC All three Pico fuses good. I have tried eliminating EN-81 with no good results.

What fault are you getting? 109, 143, 102, 103, or 116? All these faults are associated with SAF3 opening. SAF3 is controlled by the car CPU. It's function is to tell the car CPU is functioning and car CPU detects no safety critical failure.

I'm not sure what faults are showing now. I'm going to the job tomorrow and will report. However, when I have the car with no SAF3 and I try to run, or break the safety circuit and remake same, there are no faults generated.

You've checked the pico on saf3 and put a new module in it?

Yes. I'll know more tomorrow.