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#13066 - 12/24/14 04:10 AM
westinghouse car runs with doors open
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Was looking to see if anyone has had a similar experience on a old duplex traction job, 2c2bc erl controls. we were replacing the 41B coil on the number 1 car, had the power off, and had to loosen the screw holding the ES relay, in order to get the coil in and out. While we were in the midst of replacing, building engineer came to machine room and indicated that the other car was running with the doors open. we immediately shut off the car, and i had the mechanic run down to make sure the doors were closed and we had control of car, he met 4 people in the stairway that were in the car when it ran with the doors open, very scary situation, after we made sure the car doors would not open we ran the car from the controller, and it ran fine, now we are a bit uneasy to say the least, we decided to get the coil replaced so we could have one car running in the building, while trying to get the coil in, we noticed that the direction relays 2A, and 2B would pick up in the other car that was on controller inspection at the time, they would chatter as i moved the 41b relay around. if 41B number 21 contact would touch the frame of the controller, the direction relays would pick in the other car, i could simulate the problem by just putting a jumper on 41b 21 contact to ground, and sure enough the direction relays would pick up in the other car, it did not matter if any of the door relays were out, or the 29 relay was out, i could physically hold 41,41a etc out and still would pick up direction relays. so now i decided to find out why, ended up finding the number 21 contact of LU relay in the contact holder incorrectly, causing it to be wedged up against the relay frame, repaired it, and now i could not get the direction relays to pick. I decided to see if i could simulate this exact situation with the other car, so i proceed to jump same to contacts to ground in opposite cars, and sure enough same outcome. This seems to be a design flaw, since 79 and 00 power supply is ungrounded, this double ground situation somehow found a path between the 2 controllers and cause this problem. strange thing is that the bigger relays, 2 and 6 did not pick up while i was testing this scenario, only 2a and 2b, using the meter, i found that there was only 48vdc across 2a, 2b, 2 and 6 relays with respect to 00, just enough to pick up the ES relays, but not enough to pick up the bigger 2 and 6 relays, however the car did run with both car and hall doors open, as we have 4 eyewitnesses. so i am thinking that while moving the 41b relay around, some of the other contacts must have introduced a little extra voltage to the scenario to pick up the relays 2, and 6 or the car stopped, and 2 and 6 dropped, but then 48vdc was applied, and that may have been enough to repick the relays. Has anyone experienced anything like this? the 41 b contact that i grounded was in the 438 circuit, I know it seems like 1 in a million chance for this to happen again, but i was the 1, and it will happen elsewhere just giving a heads up to be careful when working on these cars, or any system that has floating power supplies for the controller. If any one can give me any advice, please pm me, if you have ran across this situation. or something similar
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#13077 - 12/27/14 02:48 AM
Re: westinghouse car runs with doors open
[Re: jkh]
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uppo72
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Is this a side by side construction? Is the field wiring coming in a common conduit or ducting? I wonder if you have a short from 79 to ground and/or pinching/inducing this short via the mixing of the 2 field wiring within these structures. Maybe the over travel/direction limits wiring?? This should blow fuses, so I would place a short to see if this blows the fuses at the very least.
Last edited by uppo72; 12/27/14 02:54 AM.
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#13086 - 12/29/14 08:18 AM
Re: westinghouse car runs with doors open
[Re: E-man]
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uppo72
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I agree with Halfpick. You're not blowing fuses because you only have ONE ground per supply, per car. Very scary because you can have one ground and not know about it unless you get another one in the same supply or something out of the ordinary is noticed or happens. Ok but would it be also fair to say it depends on 'where' the short is? If the current isn't high enough to over current the fuse then it wont blow? Fair statement? If there is a load between supply and an earth(ground) that suppressors the current flow the fuse wouldn't blow? If there isn't then the current would be high surely?
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#13088 - 12/29/14 05:15 PM
Re: westinghouse car runs with doors open
[Re: uppo72]
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E-man
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#13094 - 12/30/14 04:00 AM
Re: westinghouse car runs with doors open
[Re: halfpick]
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both cars are running, maybe i did not explain myself correctly. There were 2 grounds that caused this problem, 1 ground in the direction circuit, that being the LU contact that was touching the frame of the relay thus grounding it, and the other being in the 438 circuit, which i grounded by moving the relay around while changing the coil. if you look at the 438 circuit, there is a 1000 ohm resistor that comes right off of the 311 line, and then into the 438 coil circuit, i inadvertently grounded the right side of that resistor by moving the relay around. The grounded LU contact had been like that for who knows how long, and when i introduced the ground in the 438 circuit, the problem arose. I did take some measurements with the meter while i was tracing out why the direction relays were picking, and from 00 to the the right side of that 1000 ohm resistor that was grounded i was getting 48 vdc, the same voltage that was from 00 to the left side of the direction relays 2,2A,6 etc. i had 48 vdc across direction relays, that is how i isolated the problem back to the LU contact, once i broke the feed to the grounded LU contact, the voltage across direction relays dropped to 0. The car that was running, and ran with the doors open, had a ground in the direction circuit, and when i introduced a ground in 438 circuit of the car that was shut down and i was working on, that is when the car ran with doors open, both cars are running now, there are no grounds in either of the cars power supplies now, However, like i explained earlier, i can simulate the exact scenario on the opposite car. We have been given some advice to use the lightbulbs to check for grounds on all our westinghouse cars, as half pick has suggested. I think it has something to do with the drop across the 1000 ohm resistor in the 438 circuit, since the car i was working on was shut off, the car that was running, and ran with doors open, was supplying the feed to the 311- 312 circuit, grounding out the right side of that 1000 ohm resistor and grounding out the LU contact cause a feed between the 2 points. I am in portland for a week, but when i get back i will go to another job and see if i can duplicate the problem. I believe i can duplicate it elsewhere, I will keep you posted. JKH in this duplex controller, 79 and 00 are the same as 311 and 312. with car number 1 off, car number 2's 79 and 00 will feed the common feed 311 and 312. Halfback, i did not try to duplicate the problem with both cars power on, maybe i will check into that as well when i get back
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