Home Forums General Discussion Technical Questions 1962 Westinghouse 2BC-ERL won't run

Does anyone have a nomenclature cheat sheet for an early 60s Westinghouse. I forgot how much the prints suck. I can't remember what the hatch door and gate switch relay are. I have not seen one of these since 1997 or 98

DC unit generator runs, accepts calls, but won't leave the floor. after a minute or so, the doors reopen, than close again. If I pop a lock I don't get any relays dropping. So I am assuming it is door closed relay issue.

Thanks

Ashley

Didn't have much Westinghouse info to upload to my AI troubleshooting app, but this is what it came up with.

not the early-60s Westinghouse relay logic you’re asking about. Those old prints really do suck for nomenclature, and Westinghouse had their own way of naming things. Here’s what usually applies on those 1960s DC generator/relay jobs:

Door Closed Relay was typically marked DOR or sometimes DZ (Door Zone / Door Closed chain). On some Westinghouse jobs it was “DR” (Door Relay).

Gate Switch Relay was usually GR or GSR (Gate Switch Relay). Sometimes the switch itself was just “G” and the relay was “GR.”

Hatch Door Switch contacts were in series with the gate switch contacts and fed the DOR/DZ relay. Westinghouse often grouped all the mechanical contacts into one “Door/Gate string” and the nomenclature could show as “DL” or “DS.”

The symptom you describe (car accepts calls, generator running, but never leaves floor, then doors recycle) matches DOR not picking. If you “pop a lock” and nothing drops, it means your door circuit isn’t even being monitored right now—likely the DOR/DZ relay is not energizing, so the controller never qualifies motion.

👉 A quick check:

Trace the DOR (or DZ) coil in the print. It should be fed through all hatch door interlocks + car gate switch.

See if the relay is actually up. If not, jumper across a lock and see if it responds.

If it is up, but the car still won’t run, check the DOR’s back contacts—Westinghouse often used those in the start/run permissive.

Would you like me to draw you a simplified ladder of the door/gate/DOR relay circuit as it usually appeared on those 1960s Westinghouse units? That might serve as a “cheat sheet” you can keep handy.

So this vintage they didn't use any letters in nsmong the relsys only numbers; like 29 is the safety string 43 & 44 are door open and close, 1 & 2 are up and down

Sorry my last rely didn't make any sense. This vintage is using manly numbers not letters. Looking at the prints this am over coffee, Gate is relay 40 and Hall is 41 .
So what I got so far in case anyone else is looking 1 is UP demand, 2 is Down Demand, either of these will pull in the 32s, 5 is Generator Run Relay, 40 and 40A is gate switch, 41 is door locks, 42s is hall calls registered, 43 and43 a is door close, 44 and 44a is door open, 60N is run /stop switches, 100s is up hall calls, 200s are down hall calls and 300s are Car Call. It's a start , but I got allot to figure out yet.

Westinghouse (early ’60s, DC MG) – relay/number quick map

Movement demand & direction

1 = Up Demand (master up call)

2 = Down Demand

32s = Direction starter/sequence relays that qualify 1/2 into motion (you’ll see 1 or 2 → 32s → brake/main).

MG / power / run chain

5 = MG Run (machine‑generator run permissive). Often seals itself through a back contact in the stop string; will also be used to qualify car movement.

60N = Run/Stop switches (machine room stop, cartop stop, pit stop, etc.)—this is your safety string “normal” feed; verify 60N is solid before chasing doors.

Door/gate permissives (the usual show‑stoppers)

40 / 40A = Car gate switch / gate relay. Expect 40 coil fed through the car gate contact; 40A is its companion/aux contact used in the run chain.

41 = Hoistway (hatch) door locks string. On many jobs 41 is the relay built up by all hatch locks; sometimes the lock string feeds directly into 41’s coil.

43 / 43A = Door close command / aux (used as “door close proving” in some prints).

44 / 44A = Door open command / aux.

42s = Hall call registered relay (traffic). (Useful for knowing you’re “ready to go” once the door permissives make.)

Calls

100‑series = Up hall call storage/register (by floor).

200‑series = Down hall call storage/register.

300‑series = Car call storage/register.

Suffix tips you’ll see on these prints:
• A usually denotes an auxiliary/companion contact for that relay number (e.g., 40A = aux of the 40 relay).
• S/s is commonly “stick/seal” or “storage” in Westy traffic logic (e.g., 32s, 42s). Use the title‑block legend if present to confirm.

Fast diagnosis with your symptoms

“MG runs, accepts calls, won’t leave the floor; after ~1 min the doors reopen/close; popping a lock doesn’t drop anything.”

That screams door‑closed proving isn’t being made or isn’t handed into the run chain, so the controller keeps cycling door operation hoping to make DCL, times out, reopens, tries again.

Watch 40 and 41 together

With doors fully closed and gate latched, you should see 40 and 41 picked. If either one is not up, you’ll never get qualified run.

If you “pop a lock” and nothing drops, either:

your 41 relay isn’t in series with that particular lock (bypassed/strapped elsewhere), or

the door‑closed proving that feeds the run chain is actually through a 43A (door‑close “prove”) or a dedicated DCL contact derived from 40/41, not directly from 41’s main contact. Trace what actually feeds 32s/PM/BR.

Trace the run‑permissive into the first motion device
Pick a known motion element (brake or main contactor) and trace backwards:

BR (brake coil) or PM (main) → through 32s → through 40A + 41 (and/or 43A) → through 60N → power.
Meter across 40A and 41 while doors “proved”; if you catch intermittents here, that’s your recycle cause.

Door close prove vs. door zone
Early Westy often separate door‑closed proving (derived from 40/41/43A) from door zone. If DZ (sometimes a cam or vane switch) is stuck or mis‑set, you may accept calls but be inhibited from leaving because the controller doesn’t “see” itself properly at/clear of the floor. If the print shows a door‑zone input in the run permissive, check it’s dropping at the right time.

Time‑outs & recycle
If 43 is commanded, but 43A (close prove) never makes, you’ll see exactly your behavior: timer expires → 44 opens → doors re‑open → retry. Check mechanical close force and the clean make of the gate tongue and keeper—a whisker of bounce can keep 40 from sealing. Clean and re‑tension.

How I’d finish your cheat sheet (in the field, 10–15 minutes)

Put your meter on 40 coil; check that you’ve actually got coil voltage when the car is waiting to start. No volts = the car gate contact string isn’t even trying to build 40.

Meter 41 coil at the same moment. If 41 coil is hot but the relay isn’t up, swap in a test relay or check the base/knife blades—old Westy relay blades pit and go high‑resistance.

Identify the brake coil number by following B1/B2 leads to the rectifier/contactor—write that coil number on your sheet. Then pencil the entire permissive chain feeding that coil. That becomes your definitive “go/no‑go” picture for this job.

Sanity note about your uploaded docs
.

If you want, I can turn your list into a one‑page printable with blanks for the remaining coils (brake, main, leveling, limit, selector) so you can fill them in as you trace. Or post a pic of the first ladder page and I’ll finish labeling the likely motion chain for you.

Here is the complete print set that we got on file for this unit:

https://1drv.ms/b/c/3c989524d8d344fd/Ef1E09gklZgggDw76gEAAAAB0JjGozZqpEK2XFE9aPA9uA?e=MtjW1X

🚦 Typical Run Chain (qualifying a start)

Here’s the simplified ladder of what has to be true for the car to pick brake/main and move:

Power Feed →
60N (Run/Stop switches closed) →
40A (Gate closed & proved) →
41 (All hatch door locks made) →
43A (Door Close Prove) →
[Direction sequence: 32s picked by 1 or 2 demand] →
BR/Main Contactor coil →
Car runs

How it behaves:

MG Run (5) is up once machine is ready.

When a call is registered (100s/200s/300s), either 1 (Up Demand) or 2 (Down Demand) picks.

That pulls the appropriate 32s (directional starter).

But 32s can only hand off to brake/main if the “door-closed chain” is made:

60N + 40A + 41 + 43A.

If 43/43A never makes, the timer kicks → doors recycle (your symptom).

Once motion starts, MV/MVA seal in and traffic logic clears door commands.

👉 This gives you a working cheat sheet + run chain.
Would you like me to make this into a one-page printable PDF with the table and the ladder diagram so you can tape it inside the controller?

You said:
So back to the original problem, what do you think it is?
ChatGPT said:
Thought for 22s

Short answer: it’s almost certainly a missing door‑closed prove in the run chain—i.e., your 43A/DCL path never makes solid—so the controller times out, reopens, and retries. or a bouncy gate 40/40A.

Here’s how I’d pin it down fast, no prints needed:

What to watch (in order)

43 (Door Close) coil

Does 43 energize while the doors close?

If no → chase the close command (44 dropping, close limit not made, door motor limit).

If yes, go to #2.

43A (Door‑closed prove) contact

Meter across 43A during full close. You want 0 V (contact closed).

If it never goes to 0 V (or flickers), that’s your recycle.

Common causes: misadjusted close limit, worn cam/roller, bad 43 aux blade, carbon on tips, or high‑resistance crimp.

40/40A (Gate) and 41 (Hatch locks)

Both should be picked at full close; meter across 40A and 41 (look for 0 V).

Gently flex the gate tongue—if 40A bounces, the car will never qualify a start even if 43 is up.


Run chain at the brake coil (most decisive)

While it’s “waiting to go,” put your meter on the brake coil or the first motion device (PM/BR).

If there’s no coil voltage, walk back through the series: 60N → 40A → 41 → 43A (→ DZ if used) → 32s. The first spot you see full line is your open.

Why “popping a lock” didn’t drop anything

On a lot of these, the start‑permit doesn’t use the raw lock string directly; it uses the door‑closed prove derived from the door operator (your 43A/DCL). So popping one lock won’t drop anything because the run chain was already open upstream at 43A—hence no visible change.

My bet (ordered)

43A/DCL not making (misadjusted close limit or weak/burnt 43 aux)

Gate 40A bounce (tongue/keeper just shy—closes, then relaxes)


If you want, tell me the exact behavior of 43, 43A, 40A, and 41 at “doors fully closed,” and I’ll point to the exact contact to tweak.

I don’t think adding to the amount of AI slop on the internet is helping anyone. There may be a place for this but this forum is useful for getting input from an actual elevator mechanic who has experience with the issue in question. I don’t know what the OP thinks but I could send him actual Westinghouse documents that explain the relay nomenclature.

Westinghouse docs would be great.
I did get it running, the site prints were missing the sheet with the interlocks and gate switch, luckily our company site had the originals. We have a policy to scan prints from every new job we take on so when things get "lost" it easy to replace. It was indeed the hall interlock relay , but I would love to get the Westinghouse docs if you wouldn't mind.