Oh, and don't get bamboozled by the little companies, who keep trying to push wasteful mods. They always like to use the obsolete marketing trick, stating that your equipment is no longer serviceable because parts are unavailable. While that may be true in some cases, but it's not always. These companies like to target good, built to last, performing equipment such as Swift Futura, DMC, 211/211M, 411/411M, Series 90, Ascension 1000/2000, and the absolute best Northern TC181/TC3200. Except for MCE and Alpha, they just don't make em as good as they used to. It's best to always do your HW before falling for a mod. That mod just might not be a bargain after all. Just as tayto mentioned, most of his problem jobs are the generic/non-proprietary jobs. I'm sure many of the little companies are hurting financially and use the "this equipment is obsolete" trick to make money.
Somewhere along this thread I forgot we were talking about GEN2s and looking back it looks like others did too. The GAL kit is only “engineered” to replace an AT400 mechanically. These are geared towards replacing AT400s on 211s with discrete inputs and outputs. These AT400 on a GEN2 is multi drop meaning serial communication. That means the controller is expecting to communicate with the door operator and with elevators this almost always locks you to something from the OEM except in the cases where it can be converted to a discrete operator meaning adding open, close, nudge outputs and DOL, DCL inputs. You will probably regret buying one of these kits then looking for a company to install it. It might not even be possible. I’d be curious if anyone has seen this done. I’ll be looking to see if the IOs even exists on a GEN2 to be programmed to an RSL card.
Asbury, why haven't you reached out to an elevator contractor other than Otis in your area? Otis is going to quote you higher because you are not under contract. Are you month to month, time and materials, oil and grease contract? Your best option is to request quotes in your area from licensed contractors
Oh, and don't get bamboozled by the little companies, who keep trying to push wasteful mods. They always like to use the obsolete marketing trick, stating that your equipment is no longer serviceable because parts are unavailable. While that may be true in some cases, but it's not always. These companies like to target good, built to last, performing equipment such as Swift Futura, DMC, 211/211M, 411/411M, Series 90, Ascension 1000/2000, and the absolute best Northern TC181/TC3200. Except for MCE and Alpha, they just don't make em as good as they used to. It's best to always do your HW before falling for a mod. That mod just might not be a bargain after all. Just as tayto mentioned, most of his problem jobs are the generic/non-proprietary jobs. I'm sure many of the little companies are hurting financially and use the "this equipment is obsolete" trick to make money.
Yes well said! I have noticed in my area a lot of the small outfits push mods because the skill pool they have is poor. Know a big high rise job that Kone ripped out early 411s with 139HTs and replaced with their "disc" machines. In 5 years have already replaced 2 out of 8 machines and the callbacks are about the same as the 30+ year old "worn out" Otis equipment. At least they have NEW equipment now and don't have to deal with Otis anymore RIGHT??? Kone will be saying they need to mod again in 10 years ...
You do realize the skilled labor to yahoo mechanic percentage is the same in union shops and non union shops right? This is why union shops and non union shops have mechanics and adjusters.
Alot of the time mods are pushed because the oem equipment is genuinely worn out or unreliable, not just because the small shop couldn't figure some proprietary secret out. Heck my boss used to get mad at me for fixing cars he said was done and "needed" a mod.
Although modding 411s to kone is just dumb. Mods are supposed to be done to real quality equipment like the independents use, nidec or HW or torin. That's the whole point is to get rid of unreliable proprietary equipment. My favorite is a customer that does their homework or hires a consultant then SPECS what they want. I love seeing canton jobs or mods with torin machines/mce controllers done by kone or other union shops. Customer got good equipment no matter who won the bid.
Sadly the majors are pushing independents into these scenarios in some cases. They are obsoleting components and moving to “repair only”. I hate telling a customer they need to consider a Mod on a 311 or 411 but Otis/Unitec just doesn’t support them. Even have parts issues on the Gen2’s sometimes. Adams is following suit with the 3300/5500 product. Kone and TKE pull the same stuff more and more lately.
Sending boards / drives out for repairs leads to longer downtimes etc. As many have said the “new” mod products leave a lot to be desired. Will be interesting to see how all these imperial, torin, etc. machines age.
Definitely don’t envy anyone who owns an elevator these days. Probably better off having kept your old relay logic 😂.
At least generic/non-proprietary MRLs are getting smaller shaft footprints akin to their OEM counterparts. Torin (Haider) has their HGL465, HW has their GLR series, imperial has their 543/545 series, Zehl Abegg has their ZADisc. I could go on and on. All of these machines as approx. the same size and have the same installation schematics/layout has the KONE Ecodisc. Hopefully this will allow the smaller companies to have access to smaller equipment that can mount to the rails, rather than an oversized/overbuilt HW GL-171 series installed on a bunch of beams, making it difficult to access critical components needing adjustment, such as the brakes. Plus, it's overbuilt, so it adds weight to the system.
If you want a logical explanation of why all OEMs, except KONE, have switch from conventional cables to belts in the North American market; it's because the capacity in most North American elevators is much larger than their European counterparts. Belts allow for a smaller shaft footprint that conventional cable MRLs, except KONE, do, and they also allow higher capacity, while saving space. What allows KONE to not get the memo, is "Only the strong survive." Their design was and still is more compact that what the other OEMs were using before switching to belts. In fact, it was at comparable size. It's rail mounted and has easy access to critical components, such as the brakes.
I bet you all didn't know that KONE didn't invent the EcoDisc. It was stolen from this design, which was invented two years before Ecodisc. KONE never got sued for it.
You do realize the skilled labor to yahoo mechanic percentage is the same in union shops and non union shops right? This is why union shops and non union shops have mechanics and adjusters.
Alot of the time mods are pushed because the oem equipment is genuinely worn out or unreliable, not just because the small shop couldn't figure some proprietary secret out. Heck my boss used to get mad at me for fixing cars he said was done and "needed" a mod.
Although modding 411s to kone is just dumb. Mods are supposed to be done to real quality equipment like the independents use, nidec or HW or torin. That's the whole point is to get rid of unreliable proprietary equipment. My favorite is a customer that does their homework or hires a consultant then SPECS what they want. I love seeing canton jobs or mods with torin machines/mce controllers done by kone or other union shops. Customer got good equipment no matter who won the bid.
all the small outfits in my area are union, so this isn't a union vs non-union pissing match. Honestly the 411 to Kone job was one of the nicer Otis jobs in town, it was very clean. It needed door operators and all the doors & locks gone through, but some companies have good salesmen and/or customers that like to spend money. A lot of jobs just need this rather than a full blown mod. I do believe in adding secondary brakes (rope grippers) on old equipment. door lock monitoring is a good one too, but neither are mandatory on older equipment in my area. My experience has been mixed with Torin. I still prefer HW (have no experience with GT machine) but I admit getting a good geared machine from anyone these days seems to be getting harder. Also seems GAL & MCE are charging more and more for parts, but this isn't surprising. I think they will eventually go the route of the larger companies. Making things obsolete and offering drop in "upgrades".
