Home Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Advice on a push button station/ Concord

Hello all,

The Northern Nevada Children's Museum was broken into a few days ago, and after forcing an outside door, the perps found themselves in the first floor elevator lobby with no access to the main part of the building. They had probably seen too many movies where the hero tears off a cover plate and bypasses the system with a bobby pin. Apparently, their talents ended at the "tear the cover plate off" part, and after they pried the push button station out, they were stumped. Unfortunately for the folks at the Museum, the box dropped to the end of it's cable and the first floor station (of 3 floors) on this Concord Horizon (I believe) has not worked since.

A local repair company looked at the situation, disconnected a ribbon cable to disable the station and provided a $2550.76 proposal for replacement of the station. I'm a retired EE who ocassionaly volunteers at the Museum and took a look at the panel today. Other than the removed cable, no obvious signs of damage and I was tempted to plug it back in and check for symptoms, but thought better of it.

I'm in no position to make a judgement on the fairness of the repair proposal and certainly don't want to get any Forum members in hot water with a local provider, but would appreciate guidance on how to proceed. The organization that made the proposal also has the service contract and I suppose one place to start would be to get a second opinion. Also tempted to write down all the wire colors, pull the box, do some minor disassembly and inspect for mechanical failures. Hard to believe any electrons got jarred loose and a bad/broken connection would seem more likely. Obviously the service company does not want to go to component level inspection, but the museum simply does not have funds for the repair.

Also, next week, we'll check with the Carson City, the buildings owner to see if there is any insurance coverage.

Any advice from the collective wisdom of Forum Members is appreciated.

Best wishes

Neglected to add that I have some photos but not familiar with picture posting protocol.

Will check the photo section of the Forum.

Hi Steve..

It appears Concord was purchased by Savaria Elevator. You might check out Savaria site and see if anything's still supported over there for Concord.

http://www.savaria.com/products/home-elevators/index.php

If it's just a relay control, you can probably use the diagram and wire new buttons to the control. You can have a COP probably made at a local fab shop, purchase some 3rd party vendor buttons and wire it in to the control..

If it's a processor control the buttons are probably still discreet and you can do the same thing. I doubt Concord used any kind of serial link from the buttons to the control..

Good luck.

hi steve, there should be no reason why you cant fix the issue or at least fault find the issue. obviously if you can claim on insurance that would be best. i would be taking photos of the panel to indicate/remind you of the way it was before you have a go of fixing it. i would then just compare this panel to another level and copy the wiring. what sort of control is it? serial data ie does a cable go to a pcb the wires from it or is it just normal wiring? i would test it this way and then if you wish you can at least know what wrong and then put it back the way it was for the powers that be to decide what to do contractually. try this and see how you go.

Compare the wires on the first floor panel to those on the top floor. Provided the first floor have fire service key switch, the top floor should only be different in that it is for a top floor down hall call and not a bottom floor up. Turn off the main line and verify no voltage at controller and see where these wires terminate in the controller. Be carefull not to disturbe any wires. Most important be safe and if any question call in professionals, because I would not want there to be any additional repaires needed.

Just an FYI Concord/Savaria has been known to quite frequently use a Dupline serial link system for even their very short rise installations. They typically use the Dupline system for hall calls, car calls, and selector. I believe each hall station is addressable but it does require a separate tool for programming. It might not be the case on this particular elevator but most of the newer Concord LULAS I have ran into have utilized this system.

Going back through my old faulty memory, I'm almost positive I worked on a wheel chair lift at Disney in Orlando with this control. And Abe's right. buttons were serial linked..

If it is like the Concord I have worked on the cop is full of boards. Be carefull they are flaky. The good side is that Concord will give you tech support. I have a guys business card and number from Concord if needed.

I'd just like to add something here-

It is extremely expensive to be an elevator contractor. This is a highly regulated industry, with many factors that increase overhead costs for the business.

First of all, union elevator mechanics have what is, compared to other blue collar workers, fairly lavish salaries, benefits far and away above other similar industries. Just being an elevator man incurs signifigant risk of injury and death, and who would want to risk their life everyday, unless there was adequate compensation comensurate with the risk? Just that fact alone justifies higher salaries for elevator mechanics, let alone our extemely varied skills. It's not like an electrician or other building trades has to hang off the edge of a temporary platform 300 feet in the air, holding a 1/2 drill motor by one hand to drill a 5/8 hole into an overhead machine beam with hot shavings falling down their shirt everyday. Workers in other industries just dont have the same risks we endure everyday. Maybe steel workers, but they dont regularly work around rotating machinery, high voltages, nor spend time in tight enclosures with equipment whizzing by just inches away from death. But I digress.

Secondly, because of the insurance requirements, there is a high cost of overhead just to have the doors open, even if no work is being done at all.

Thirdly, because this industry is so small, parts costs are out of proportion with their apparent worth, compared to mass produced products in other industries.

These factors mean that elevator services cost noticeably more than other building trades, and more than other industries.

These costs show up everywhere, like in repair proposals, because the cost of doing business has to be recouped accross the board. We're not in business for the glory, that don't pay the bills.

Just a little perspective on the elevator industry for ya, in case you weren't versed on it.

And yes, I got it that you weren't questioning the relative worth of the proposal. Just wanted you to know "what's up wit dat"!

Cheers!

Thanks to everyone who responded, and Vic too, for your clear description of challenges faced by businesses and workers in the industry.

Just an aside: We don't have too many tall buildings in Northern Nevada, but I worked on a project in Reno a few years back where the old 30 storey, Golden Phoenix Casino/Hotel was converted to the Montage, a luxury condo building. State of the art Schindler elevators replaced the old technology Haughtons, and I still remember the first time I rode the new ones. As I observed to my homies, the closest mankind will ever get to Star Trek transporters :-). Step in at ground level, push 30 and in what seems like seconds, the doors opened at the top, as accelerometer controlled motors smoothly took the car to the top. No discernible G forces. Doors close, doors open, and there you are!

And can't say enough about the install crew. An extraordinarily smart and funny bunch of guys...and did I mention brave? Yipe!

Before I go further with the advice I've received on the Concord, if someone would email me at [email protected], I'll attach the photos of the unit in question, which could be posted here by someone who is familiar with the process. Or just steer me to the instructions. As mentioned, no obvious damage and I'm thinking, since it may need to be replace anyway, I can't do any harm with a careful examination on my workbench.

Finally, I believe I have discovered how a least some of the best and brightest in the elevator industry spend some of their spare time!

Thanks again, all.

Dupline boards need to be programmed with a hand held tool and the cost is around five hundred. When you order the board Dupline will sent it loaded for a nominal fee, just give them the job # and they will do the rest.

Thanks selfproclaimed!

Think I cracked the code for pictures. Let's see.

Photo 1

Photo 2

Photo 3

Or not :-(

The links work, but I thought the pics would appear in the post.

Feel free to fix this for me. Thought I missed a "/" on the second [img] (ie [/img]) but no joy.

Did not post photos when I did the change and previewed :-(.

Help!!

Hello all,

Trust this finds everyone well and busy!

On all Forums I have joined, the biggest negative is folks who spend a lot of members time with an inquiry, obtain numerous thoughtful, detailed responses...and then disappear, never to be heard from again :-(.

To battle that unfortunate trend, here's a very brief ('cuz that's all I ever got) summary of the disposition of the damaged control box at the Children's Museum:

After weeks of no response from the Mgr., finally heard that the city, who leases the property to the Museum, sent a tech over to look at the box. Apparently he made a thorough visual examination, with trained and experienced eyeballs, and was able to make things right by ???. Asked the Mgr. for contact Info so I could share details with everyone here who was involved (thanks!), and she told me she via email she "...did not feel comfortable with that...", but thanks for your assistance. Huh!?!?!

Very annoying.

Anyway, thanks again to all of you who made time to contribute!

Best wishes.