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Forums13
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Apr 9th, 2026
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 9
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 9 |
Hello all. I hope this is the correct forum for this post. It's not highly technical, but I couldn't find a better option.
I am not a technician, but a condo-board officer with a decision to make. My 11-storey (plus two below-grade floors) building is served by 2 '60s-vintage Otis elevators. The local Otis rep says they're in good shape for their age but are well beyond their expected lifetime. One of them has been experiencing frequent outages, and the most recent has lasted several weeks, since a part needed to rebuild the DC generator isn't available.
The condo board is considering "modernization". Given the age of the elevators, that's certainly the safe recommendation. But I'm not yet completely convinced because I'm a lover of old mechanical things and I can't think of anything mechanical made today that's superior to what was made back then. (Electronics yes, but mechanical? No.) And I have encountered the opinion, online, that "modernization" is in fact the replacement of great old mechanical parts with inferior newer ones.
The only way I can think of to get at the truth is to talk to people who 1. work with these things every day, and 2. don't stand to profit from a decision to "modernize".
So I'm asking you, elevator mechanics: What is the truth, and what should we do? Will "modernized" elevators be an actual improvement? Is there a different course--replacement of the generator maybe, with a rebuilt model, or whatever--that would make more sense?
Thanks,
Bored Member
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 366
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 366 |
I love the old Otis units-21UCLS is my favorite controller. Being that the elevators serve a condo they have been in the best situation for longevity. That being said it is time to look at modernization. The new equipment will allow far greater efficient operation and future expansion-security operation-future fire codes etc. Most likely you would be installing new AC motors in place of the DC hoist motor/generator. This will eliminate carbon dust filtering into the building and into the elevator equipment. I tend to be a bit more bias in that I love the Regen AC drive we have at Otis-paired with the GCS contoller, I-Motion 2 door operator and M3 fixtures. I've adjusted many of these units and have had very few if any call-backs.
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 419
addict
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addict
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 419 |
I agree totally with E311
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 280
GreenPants
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GreenPants
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 280 |
the decision should not be based on the fact that you like old equipment. it should be based on safety. think how much one law suit would cost if a part of the controller malfunctioned and injured someone. how many 1960's cars that are daily drivers do you see on the road? all mechanical parts will fail eventually. even if the elevator doesnt malfunction the property value of each unit in your building would go up with modern elevators. one bit of advise, you get what you pay for in a modernization. i am biased working for otis but E311 is right on with that MOD package it is extremely reliable, safe and energy efficient.
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 404
troubleshooter1
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troubleshooter1
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 404 |
Im with the other guys on this one, if your going to modernize, and are going to choose one of the 4 main guys, Otis, Thyssen, Kone, and Schindler all of which will have proprietary equipment that will make it harder for anyone else to service, I would go the otis route. We have quite a few in service, and they are indeed very reliable. I would stay away from the Schindler and Kone product. Thyssen would be my second choice. Just remember they all make it hard for any other company to service and repair their equipment, this could be problematic in the future. There are a few good non-proprietary elevator controllers on the market that most elevator men can fix, Motion control, Elevator controls etc. They are a little cheaper. We have also had many of these cars in service, and in my opinion are fairly reliable as well, especially in a moderate usage building such as a condo.
one thing that bothers me in your post is the statement that they can not find a "part" to rebuild the generator. What part are they talking about? Sounds to me like the usual, hold the customer hostage with no elevator for a couple of weeks, to eek a modernization out of them. unfortunately i have Seen it more times then i would like to admit. what state are you in
Last edited by Scott Davidson; 11/28/12 05:22 AM.
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 31
pinwrench
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pinwrench
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 31 |
i would almost never get my elevators done by any of the big 4.....because of how they hold you hostage and other companys have a hard time fixing and getting information and parts ! for a big commercial building with lots of elevators and features i would go with the big 4 but a condo with 15 stops i would go with elevator systems
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 132
member
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 132 |
You have to weigh the options and cost on a modernization or maintenance.
Sure ,you could let it go to Otis to maintain it as long as you are willing to pay the price of maintaining it,which will never happen because of all the labor cut backs and lack of experienced people to work on it.
The parts are available,the knowledge is sometimes not.
It would be a good idea to go non-propitiatory so anyone could work on it and there are some good products out there.
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 132
member
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 132 |
Im with the other guys on this one, if your going to modernize, and are going to choose one of the 4 main guys, Otis, Thyssen, Kone, and Schindler all of which will have proprietary equipment that will make it harder for anyone else to service, I would go the otis route. We have quite a few in service, and they are indeed very reliable. I would stay away from the Schindler and Kone product. Thyssen would be my second choice. Just remember they all make it hard for any other company to service and repair their equipment, this could be problematic in the future. There are a few good non-proprietary elevator controllers on the market that most elevator men can fix, Motion control, Elevator controls etc. They are a little cheaper. We have also had many of these cars in service, and in my opinion are fairly reliable as well, especially in a moderate usage building such as a condo.
one thing that bothers me in your post is the statement that they can not find a "part" to rebuild the generator. What part are they talking about? Sounds to me like the usual, hold the customer hostage with no elevator for a couple of weeks, to eek a modernization out of them. unfortunately i have Seen it more times then i would like to admit. what state are you in Yes,that part bothered me also,about can't get the part for the generator. That is a bunch of bullshit. They can be repaired,you can still get brushes and brush riggings for them. Sounds like they either don't want to spend the money on it our they are short of manpower.
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 563
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hi BM, you havent stated what type of machine is in use now which can determine the type of mod you wish to do and which effects the price. geared machines will almost always need an upgrade of motor while a gearless machine can generally be used as is(otis machines are pretty robust). on the choice as whether it needs a mod, it basically comes down to parts and expertise which in the case of otis selectors is getting rather slim. at the end of the day machines are designed for a life span of around 30 years and these lifts have done their job. the modern lifts have a more precise levelling system than the old lifts and can limit law suits. i would recommend to go ahead with a mod but use a non propriety supplier then later down the track you can have a broader base of service options than locking in an otis for example. we have used MCE gear and it has been pretty good. 1 thing to remember is to do a proper mod and not a half hearted effort(as in only replace controller and leave to door operator as is) as it just doesnt work well.
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 909
4 Ever Learning.
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4 Ever Learning.
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 909 |
B M
I'm looking at the wealth of experience from the professionals who have contributed to your request. Being a member of this forum and their industry. I wish to only say this. You have been given advice from a collective by my estimate of 200 years of experience. These professionals span
from the Americas to Australia. Some Otis and some ex-Otis. All I'm sure have worked on Otis as well as a variety of manufactured equipment.
They all seem to agree on your elevators should be modernized.
Best of luck,
Make good choices,
JKH
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 9
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 9 |
Hello all. Thanks for the excellent information and advice.
As for what actual equipment we have, here's all I can offer for now: Otis said there is no single model number as each piece is separate. The controller is a 10 Use CLS and the door operator is an AT 400.
Sorry, best I can do.
Showing my ignorance here, but what exactly do you mean when you say "use a non proprietary supplier?" I mean, I know what the words mean but not how to go about it. We're in New England, a couple of hours from Boston. Are there particular companies you could ... not recommend necessarily, but mention as potential alternatives to Otis?
Thanks,
BM
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4 Ever Learning.
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4 Ever Learning.
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 909 |
B M We are speaking of the control portion of the elevator modernization. I'm sorry I don't know of anyone in your area. But you could call a few sales people from several manufacturers and ask them. Here is my short list! Maybe some of the others can add to this list. MCE - [email protected]Elevator Controls - [email protected]Virgina Controls - [email protected]I suggest you ask them to recommend 3 companies to you. And yes any Elevator company can purchase these controllers and install them. Including Otis!
Make good choices,
JKH
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 132
member
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member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 132 |
Non -proprietary means any company can work on it ,not just and only one.
Think of it this way.
Someone installs something in your house.
The only one who can fix it is the one's who installed it.
So you are stuck with that company.
Then say that company wants to charge you more money then the others,but the others can not properly troubleshoot the unit.
You are then caught in the net of that company and their prices.
The big four is a farce.They are all the same,cutting back people,putting out crappy equipment.
I'm sorry,but I'm going on a rant.
And then they design certain fixtures and such to fail,blaming it on abuse when it's not.
So they charge the customer to upgrade to vandal proof fixtures,meaning hall buttons and car buttons.
26 years in the biz,and going downhill quick.
The guys,the techs,are of great quality,it's just the companies holding us back from doing our jobs.Overloading us til we break.
I will stop my rant now and move on.
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in my experience most elevator company equipment is ok. all have good and bad designs but generally are fine particularly the gearless dc high speed lifts which are pretty good regardless of make. the non proprietary statement basically means that the diagnostic componant of the lift is able to be activated/accessed without the company providing an access tool or code limiting this to company employees and reps. the proprietary companies limit your access to these things. so if you decide to get another company to do the service then the new companies ability to provide good service is limited and harder.
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 9
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 9 |
Hello all--once again, thanks for the excellent advice. If I can get the other bored members (yes, I do know how to spell 'board'; it's a joke) to go along, I certainly will follow it. But I've got a long way to go to get up to speed, so I have a couple of followup questions still.
jkh wrote:
>>We are speaking of the control portion of the elevator modernization.<<
Apparently, our big problem lately has been with the A/C generator. It requires a rebuild and a specific part--an armature I believe--was very difficult to source. Apparently there was just one in the warehouse before Sandy hit, and even though our elevator had been out of service for more than a week at that time, the order didn't get placed until after the storm and that part had already been claimed. (The replacement part was due in yesterday; assuming it came in as scheduled, Otis will rebuild that generator today and tomrrow.)
* So that leads to my first followup question: Can we expect good service from a fully rebuilt generator? Or should we go ahead and replace it with a DC model?
* Next: jkh wrote >>we are speaking of the control portion of the elevator modernization<< So, if I understand, there is generic, non-proprietary control systems that can be plugged in to an Otis elevator, they're a little cheaper, they work great, there are companies around that will install them, and then you're not locked in to expensive, proprietary equipment and repairs by Otis or the other big-4.
Do I have that right?
* What about the generator? Will that be an Otis product, or are there generic versions of this as well?
You guys are great. Amazing resourc.e Thanks again!
Bored Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 909
4 Ever Learning.
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4 Ever Learning.
Joined: Jan 2012
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BM Generators such as the one currently being used is a dated method of using AC power from your building and converting it to DC power. There are alternatives to generators that supply DC power to modern controllers that feed your current hoist machine. Or your current hoist may be fitted with a VVVF hoist motor that uses AC power. The condition of your hoist machines will influence that decision. Here is a link to an article you may find interesting; http://www.elevatorworld.com/magazine/elevator-modernization-condominio/
Make good choices,
JKH
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 9
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 9 |
By the way folks--I've just received some corrected information: The unobtainable part was a commutator.
BM
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Add GAL to the list of controllers they are out of New York and we have installed about 30 units of theirs and about 40 units with Motion Control.All really good stuff. Stay with these over the Big 4 and you will save some $$$ in the future and have more optios if you are unhappy with your service provider. The Big 4 will still install this equipment if you will not let them use their own.
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BM Generators such as the one currently being used is a dated method of using AC power from your building and converting it to DC power. There are alternatives to generators that supply DC power to modern controllers that feed your current hoist machine. Or your current hoist may be fitted with a VVVF hoist motor that uses AC power. The condition of your hoist machines will influence that decision. Here is a link to an article you may find interesting; http://www.elevatorworld.com/magazine/elevator-modernization-condominio/ jkh we almost exclusively use mp lifts for all our new/mod apllications but they now provide a serial data type control of which you need a test tool.
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Hello all--once again, thanks for the excellent advice. If I can get the other bored members (yes, I do know how to spell 'board'; it's a joke) to go along, I certainly will follow it. But I've got a long way to go to get up to speed, so I have a couple of followup questions still.
jkh wrote:
>>We are speaking of the control portion of the elevator modernization.<<
Apparently, our big problem lately has been with the A/C generator. It requires a rebuild and a specific part--an armature I believe--was very difficult to source. Apparently there was just one in the warehouse before Sandy hit, and even though our elevator had been out of service for more than a week at that time, the order didn't get placed until after the storm and that part had already been claimed. (The replacement part was due in yesterday; assuming it came in as scheduled, Otis will rebuild that generator today and tomrrow.)
* So that leads to my first followup question: Can we expect good service from a fully rebuilt generator? Or should we go ahead and replace it with a DC model?
* Next: jkh wrote >>we are speaking of the control portion of the elevator modernization<< So, if I understand, there is generic, non-proprietary control systems that can be plugged in to an Otis elevator, they're a little cheaper, they work great, there are companies around that will install them, and then you're not locked in to expensive, proprietary equipment and repairs by Otis or the other big-4.
Do I have that right?
* What about the generator? Will that be an Otis product, or are there generic versions of this as well?
You guys are great. Amazing resourc.e Thanks again!
Bored Member BM, if you are having commutator problems it would mean your whole armature needs replacing. you can get a good result from this repair however probably very costly. the thing is you have to make the decision on whether you think other than the generator the lifts have been pretty reliable. its all about projecting when and if the lift failures become so prevelant that you have to constantly repair them and this means costs and down time. chicken or the egg scenario. if you modernise the lifts you know you will have the spares close by and for a reasonable long time but you cant know this regarding the old existing lifts. the control we talk about means the existing controllers are completely removed and the lift is rewired completely and is not just plugged in to existing elevator controls. think of it as a new lift but most of the mechanical stuff is reused.to get a better understanding it might be an idea to speak to otis and get them to take you too a mod job.
Last edited by uppo72; 11/29/12 11:50 PM.
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HW PM
by Chris, January 13
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