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Hello all. About 10 months ago you folks were very helpful, advising about maintenance issues and an upcoming modernization project. Time to take advantage of your expertise again.

We have 4 bids in from (obviously) 4 companies. Two are Otis and Kone. Two are smaller local non-prop companies. O

Bids are complicated (at least for me) but let's just focus on the controllers, since that seems to be where most of the action is.

Non-Prop 1: Elevator Controls Inc. Controller; this is a DC (but regenerating?) controller which will allow us to keep our '60s-vintage DC motors (good or bad?)
Non-Prop 2: GAL Galaxy AC (model not specified)
Otis: Elevonic with ReGen VF Drive
Kone: Kone ReSolve System

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Unless you want to be stuck with Kone or Otis for many years to come I would go with a non propietary.

My preference would be GAL, and you could always stick with dc, but I assume you have a geared traction, thus an ac retrofit is the best option. So of those posted I would go with option 2.

Traction, thanks very much. I appreciate the observation about proprietary systems and being stuck with Otis or Kone, but on the other hand, we've had Otis service for 28 years (at least) and haven't had any complaints. It's surely nice to know that you can make a change if things go down hill, so it's not entirely a moot point.

We were surprised by the competitiveness of the Kone and Otis bids. The low bid was in fact a non-prop company, but it was only a couple of thousand below Otis. One of the on-proprietary companies was the high bid by a large amount, and they offered equipment that should have been cheaper.

Thanks,

Jim

If I owned a building I would definitely go with an AC motor and Controller, the ride quality is really beyond compare. The only reason to use a DC Control would be to retain large Gearless Motors. As far as which option is the best, you need to look at which Company can provide a quality Maintenance program. A elevator that doesn't run correctly is a bummer.

A Customer Service Tool is avaliable at the big "O" that is specific for your job, if you go with the Elevonic R mod product. This will allow other companies to service the Elevonic R. I have installed and adjusted many of these units and they are very well designed. If you decide to add options, card reader, infant security and others, the Elevonic R already has these options in it. The regen AC drive is a very well built product. If you have geared machines, replace the DC motors with AC motors, its more expensive in the begining but well worth it in the end. And yes, I do work for the big "O"

Thanks E311. What's "R"? (Elevonic R). Is that Regen? The title I'm seeing is Elevonic VF Regen. Is that the one you're referring to?

I would go with the GAL galaxy. In my experiance they have proven to be a reliable and friendly controller to work on. The other thing to concider is support, if you go with non-proprietary controls any company can obtain support from the manufacture. Some of the large companies do have tech departments to support competitor's products but that still does somewhat limit you to who can maintain the equipment down the road.

GAL or Elevator controls can provide either a AC or DC drive depending on if you will keep your exsisting hoist machines. Do you know if you have geared or gearless machines?

You should set your own specs requiring a non-proprietary controller. Remember you are the customer, you are in charge. If you like Otis based on a loyalty factor go with them on a non-proprietary mod. Theres got to be something said for loyalty as long as their treating you right and pricing right. I speak of this as an owner of an independent shop.

sccjr,

Thanks very much for your candor. Please allow me to ask a followup question. Otis, of course, insists that their proprietary equipment is superior, but in their bid offers to use non-prop equipment to meet a price point (while insisting that it's inferior). In recommending that we stick with non-proprietary equipment, is it because of the service issue--not being tied in to a single service provider--or the quality of the equipment?

Thanks,
Bored M

I used to be an adjustor/troubleshooter for Otis and to be honest their equipment is very good. That being said you are going to be stuck with them if you go with their equipment.

Yes, the Elevonic "R" or VF-R is the controller with the Regen drive. Non-propietary is one way you could go. All controllers are "propietary", all allow other companies to maintain them but not all allow other companies to access all levels of programming. GAL and EC make good controllers, Ive installed and adjusted them also, MCE has seen better days unfortunately.

Bored.. you seem to be doing a good job a due diligence for your building. I however believe strongly that you should employ the services of a consultant for your project. They will pay for themselves before the project even begins. You will never be in a better situation than to have a major company (Otis TKE Kone Schindler) install and maintain their own equipment. You will benefit in the latest technology and worldwide experience You will benefit from tech bulletins, recalls, software upgrades, trained personnel, expedited processes, process improvement and hopefully can prolong obsolescence. as long as you maintain that full service contract and good relationship for the life of your equipment.

Despite what all the majors say..their equipment is proprietary. MOst every Otis mechanic can, diagnose, repair, test, adjust an Otis controller. They have the tools, manuals and contacts. Very few non-Otis mechs can even perform the few tests required annually on anOtis controller without the proper service tool. It is no different when an Otis guy works on a Kone or TKE controller. As long as you maintain the relationships..All is good.

But relationships are tough these days.It is hard to not feel like you are being taken advantage of your maintenance provider when they charge you $500.00 an hour to restart an elevator after a power outage. Or to replace a door that was knocked off track by a mover. How about $20K for a bucket of water spilled down the hoistway (shaft).

You should reward Otis for 28 years of great service by allowing them to bid on your work and give them any preference they deserve. But your consultant will write a specification and more importantly a new maintenance agreement that serve you well for many years.A large modernization project gives you power to negotiate. Take advantage.

Elevator consultants are another interesting part of the industry. Most I have worked with are a waste of money.

Geared or gearless machines? Makes a big difference in the specs. MSS had a lot of good valid points. Every company is going to over charge you for vandalism, water damage etc. But you will be way better off with the OEM as a maintenance provider. I would get prices from Otis, Schindler and Thyssen. IMO, the equipment being manufactured by those companies is built and designed with longevity in mind.

The big companies products are not any more "built for longevity" than anything else on the market these days. Unless you are buying high speed, high end equipment (gearless, high speed, high capacity).

That said, I agree that you have a good relation and a good track record with your current service provider, it only makes sense to keep this strong relationship going. IMO it is the companies labour pool and approach to business that makes the true difference. Find a provider that cares about the customer and you will have a winner.

I was talking about Kone......

Do you work for Kone?

No.

if otis was one of the cheaper bids and you have a good relationship with the local office the relationship will get better if you award them with a mod. they are the company that has put the time and resources into your building for a long period of time. if you ask what the price would be if you signed a long term maintenance contract (10 or more years) im sure your contract price will go down even further. i do work for otis, though i would say that about any company you had a good relationship with. stick with the devil you know.

I also think there is something to be said about the relationships that you build. If they have been providing a quality service at a competitive price for you then regardless of who they are! Continue that relationship...

And no I don't work for Otis...