Home Forums General Discussion Technical Questions MRL preference

Need opinions. Have a customer that is renovating one of his buildings, replacing existing with an MRL. Contractor has quotes from Schindler and Otis. He's asking my opinion, unfortunately I have no experience with MRLs other than 1 Kone and surveying a couple. Need to know reliability, ease of service (can a third party take care of?), any points that I can assist my client in his decision making other than Otis is more expensive.
Thanks

Unfortunately none of the MRL products from the majors are real great. They of course all have propriety controls which will be difficult for others to work on. The Schindler(3300) and Otis(Gen2) product both utilize propriety suspension belts that are very expensive if they will even sell them to a 3rd party. The Kone eco space uses regular cables but has poor reliability with drives brakes and circuit boards. TKE uses regular cables as well and Torin machines which any one can buy parts for. Their hydro MRL is about the same as their standard hydro with the exception of the tank and controller being in different locations as well as using a electronic Bucher valve as opposed the I2. With the TKE equipment there is still the proprietary controller issue but anyone one can purchase the major mechanical items without going to TKE.

If it were me I would recommend going with a MRL package from MEI, Canton, or MCE. They use non-proprietary controls and typically use Holister Whitney or imperial P/M gearless machines. They may be more expensive upfront but anyone can service and get parts for them. A wise choice long term.

If it had to be one of the majors I personally would go Otis or TKE just based on reliability experience.

Agree with ABE!

Get the vendors to supply an itemized price list for the replacement parts for the installation. The owner will quickly realize how much cheaper the cost of ownership over the lifetime of the machine is with a non proprietary elevator package if they choose to change maintaining contractors from oem. Non proprietary elevator systems give the owner much more control over their machinery. They can choose the contractor that provides them with the best and most cost effective service.

Thanks all, these opinions back up my thoughts. It's amazing how much you can learn just following some of the posts on this page.

Be careful about the Schindler 3300. I admittedly don't intimately know the product, but it is my understanding that most of their own mechanics are not able to work on them unless they have gone through training. Due to a settlement with Otis over the belt technology they are unable to monitor the belts remotely which requires they be replaced after a specific amount of runs.

As for non-proprietary - I don't see the benefit. In the new installation market you are talking about a $100,000 upcharge for an MCE package over an OEM (total selling price difference). Sure you can say that anyone can maintain it, but you can also pay for 60 years of maintenance through the OEM at that price difference. So where is the true benefit to the owner? Save money in 60 years by dumping all that money now on the product that will become obsolete in 10 years?

The problem is when no one else can maintain or source parts for a specific elevator the OEM can hold the customer hostage and charge whatever they want for service. I've even a seen some OEM not cover certain propriety items like belts and drives from their full maintenance contracts so they can charge for a repair only they can do. Also depending on the area some of the OEMs provide completely awful service. So if no one else can maintain the equipment the customer could be stuck with horrible service and crazy high prices for the life of the elevator...all of a sudden the extra $$ upfront doesn't seem so bad.

So wouldn't the suggestion become to negotiate a long term agreement at a set rate so that the owner gets a secured low price on the equipment and on the maintenance? I don't disagree that an owner should be careful to not go down a path that would give them a poor future, but there are other ways than ignoring the cost effective OEMs. You can always contract with a company to mitigate the future risk. You can guarantee that service tools will be available for purchase if you don't like their service, set the maintenance price at the time of elevator purchase, guarantee that all parts are available for resale, and so on.

I don't hear people complain as much when I have to go to MCE every time a slight modification needs to be done. At that point they can charge me whatever they want the same way an OEM can. No matter what you do you are locked in with a vendor. If it isn't KONE/Otis/TKE/Schindler it is MCE/VMI/SmartRise/EC. There is always someone you MUST go to if certain things happen on the equipment regardless of if you classify them as OEM. If we are telling our customers any differently we are misleading them.

You can certainly negotiate a long term service contract prior to installation, but what if the company doesn't live up to their promises? what if the response time and and communication from the OEM is terrible? When your married to an OEM's equipment it doesn't leave much recourse. Now I will say most of the big guys do have competitor engineering departments that develop tools and manuals to work on competitors equipment, but that still does limit a owner to a hand full of companies other than the OEM for service and if it is newer equipment it could be years before anyone develops 3rd party support.

The controller modification can be an issue but its been my experience that the cost of the non proprietary modifications is no where close to the cost from an OEM. If you need software almost all the major OEMs will require one of their mechanics come out to load the software which they of course will charge a good amount for. You won't have that issue with MCE,Smartrise,Virginia controls,GAL ,etc.

Also lets not forget the proprietary mechanical items like belts, machines and special sheaves. The OEMs might sell them but at 10 times the cost of standard parts.

There's now a new way to build your own MRL (non-proprietary). These machines mimic the design of the design of the KONE MX/MNX series, but are better built and function more future proofly. They are also as compact as the KONE version. The are old-school generic MRL stuff like the HW GL-171 series requires more overhead and sometimes a larger shaft footprint. Worse yet, in some applications, they machines are difficult/unsafe to physically access, especially brakes. My best preferences are listed at top of category.

Machines:
Imperial Electric: ACPM 540 series, great for 4:1 and high capacity/speed jobs, uses Kubler encoder (same as NMX), can possible work on existing KONE logic, like KCE/LCE, not Miprom,

Vantage/HW: GLR series. Newer product release, may have longer lead time.

Only a replacement for NMX11/MX10 models at the moment. Delco HGL465: Good for moderate speed/capacity jobs (1.75 US ton/1.6 tonne, 2.5m/s/350fpm max). Newest such version to market. May need more time to evolve.

Door Operator:
Wittur AMD/LD-16/SGV, Sematic (good for mods, and new systems)

Fermator/Schindler/Columbia: 401NA for light duty, Premium N/A for heavy duty (good for new systems).

Vantage/GAL/ECI: MONXT or MOVFE-HL w/European Style lock

Please, please avoid harmonic operators if possible, they're just too too outdated and do not offer the safety features the Euro style systems do. Here's why (long version: https://www.vatortrader.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=37599#Post37599 post#: 37599

Controllers (PLEASE, PLEASE AVOID SmartRise)

MCE: Motion 4000 (iControl may be needed on large banks, but can be overkill on mid-rise jobs)

VCI (formally VA Controls): 3000s or vision. Avoid PLC models: They are just too much like a relay controller (lots of wiring/mistake points) are don't dispatch well on large banks. Use only in hazardous locations (which I don't even recommend
MRLs), such a mine-shafts, etc.

JRT: All models (The only PLC based controller that works well in all environments).

Alpha: May talk longest to level at floor.

I would avoid Vantage for now, even though i think Galaxy and Pixel is good. This is because of corporate restructuring such as the release of the Vantage Nexus controller. That might be a red flag indicating near future obsolescence.

You should also take a look at Montanari gearless machines. Fully certified for North America.

https://www.montanarina.com/

You should try to talk to builder out of mrl. I have not seen an mrl that has been designed well. Kone, Otis, and Schindler all have the drives accessed from the hoist way. And and a lot of fuses that when they blow you need to get into the hoistway to replace. And that's all good when the cartop is at the correct height. But if not and you're lucky enough that the car is low you can drift it up. But if the car is all the always up you have to load the car with weight and try and drift it down. We just had it on a Kone mrl. Inspector pulled the controller out and a wire got stuck and he forced the controller closed and it blew a fuse with the car on the top landing.

We have done a couple of MX10 and 20 replacements with imperial machines , turned out great no issues. that was done with Alpha controllers . Again worked great !

I have some Smartrise C4 controllers on Schindler equipment with overhead torin machines. Keep in mind that there are alot of parameters/monitoring that can be turned off with Smartrise. This became an issue when someone turned off the brake pick switch monitoring and had a machine pulling through normal brake. Only holding on emergency brake.
Also if you have emergency power/generators I haven't been able to get these functioning at contract speed (350fpm) I can only get them to run at 15-20fpm which will trip run timer on multiple floor runs.
That being said they have been fairly reliable for me, however Smartrise te h support isn't what it used to be when I installed the.10-15 years ago.